Discussion:
A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .
(too old to reply)
Dick Waterman
2007-08-21 19:10:41 UTC
Permalink
A recently had a visit from a senior writer from "Vanity Fair" who has been
given both time and budget to bring forth a major piece on Robert Johnson. Now
it is certainly noteworthy that a publication of their stature across the
global literary pantheon will undertake a project of this scope.

The writer's purpose seems to pose the question, "Why Robert Johnson? What is
so special about this one musician that creates an iconic status now seven
decades after his death?" He was not a major commercial success in his own
lifetime and musicians such as Leroy Carr, Kokomo Arnold, Lonnie Johnson and others
were much more accepted within the black community than Johnson was.

The intriguing part of his visit was the appearance of a photograph that
supposedly is a third image of Johnson. I had the opportunity to give it a long
look and, although I am cynical and skeptic to the bone, I admit that I am
convinced that it might well be him.

He is wearing a white shirt, no hat or jacket and he is holding a guitar.
There is a second man in the photo who is round-faced with soft features. It
supposedly is Johnny Shines and I simply could not make a determination on this
although I knew him well in his late years.

The man in the photo might or might not have a 'lazy' left eye that Johnson
supposedly had. However, in plain sight, are those long spidery thin fingers of
the left hand across the strings. It is a pretty compelling image to view.

I tuned him over to local Oxford attorney Tom Freeland, an expert on the
Mississippi inheritance circus that has evolved over the years regarding the
estate. I gave him contact information for Steve LaVere, Elijah Wald, Peter
Gurlanick, Gayle Dean Wardlow and some others.

He will be working on this for some period of time with no publication date
set. I suspect they'll try for the 70th anniversary of his death which is next
Spring.

So it asks the question of whether Robert Johnson was a black man who
achieved fame through his musical accomplishments or is he a white man's creation of
mythology (i.e. the crossroads legend) completely apart from the
African-American world?

I know that the Creative Editor of "Vanity Fair" (David Friend) is a huge
blues fan and he has given this established writer free rein to bring forth some
definitive findings.

Stay tuned . . .

Dick Waterman
Oxford, MS
www.dickwaterman.com



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Tom Muck
2007-08-21 19:16:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dick Waterman
The intriguing part of his visit was the appearance of a photograph that
supposedly is a third image of Johnson. I had the opportunity to give it a long
look and, although I am cynical and skeptic to the bone, I admit that I am
convinced that it might well be him.
That's amazing. They should get this photo to Honeyboy for a good look.
Post by Dick Waterman
So it asks the question of whether Robert Johnson was a black man who
achieved fame through his musical accomplishments or is he a white man's creation of
mythology (i.e. the crossroads legend) completely apart from the
African-American world?
His music stands on it's own and created the fame even without all the extra mythology.

Tom

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Fruteland Jackson
2007-08-21 20:32:26 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for sharing.

Fruteland Jackson
879 Joliet Street #221
Dyer IN 46311
773-400-6341
www.fruteland.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Waterman" <***@aol.com>
To: <BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 2:03 PM
Subject: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .
Post by Dick Waterman
A recently had a visit from a senior writer from "Vanity Fair" who has been
given both time and budget to bring forth a major piece on Robert Johnson. Now
it is certainly noteworthy that a publication of their stature across the
global literary pantheon will undertake a project of this scope.
The writer's purpose seems to pose the question, "Why Robert Johnson? What is
so special about this one musician that creates an iconic status now seven
decades after his death?" He was not a major commercial success in his own
lifetime and musicians such as Leroy Carr, Kokomo Arnold, Lonnie Johnson and others
were much more accepted within the black community than Johnson was.
The intriguing part of his visit was the appearance of a photograph that
supposedly is a third image of Johnson. I had the opportunity to give it a long
look and, although I am cynical and skeptic to the bone, I admit that I am
convinced that it might well be him.
He is wearing a white shirt, no hat or jacket and he is holding a guitar.
There is a second man in the photo who is round-faced with soft features. It
supposedly is Johnny Shines and I simply could not make a determination on this
although I knew him well in his late years.
The man in the photo might or might not have a 'lazy' left eye that Johnson
supposedly had. However, in plain sight, are those long spidery thin fingers of
the left hand across the strings. It is a pretty compelling image to view.
I tuned him over to local Oxford attorney Tom Freeland, an expert on the
Mississippi inheritance circus that has evolved over the years regarding the
estate. I gave him contact information for Steve LaVere, Elijah Wald, Peter
Gurlanick, Gayle Dean Wardlow and some others.
He will be working on this for some period of time with no publication date
set. I suspect they'll try for the 70th anniversary of his death which is next
Spring.
So it asks the question of whether Robert Johnson was a black man who
achieved fame through his musical accomplishments or is he a white man's creation of
mythology (i.e. the crossroads legend) completely apart from the
African-American world?
I know that the Creative Editor of "Vanity Fair" (David Friend) is a huge
blues fan and he has given this established writer free rein to bring forth some
definitive findings.
Stay tuned . . .
Dick Waterman
Oxford, MS
www.dickwaterman.com
**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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Tom Muck
2007-08-21 20:42:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dick Waterman
He is wearing a white shirt, no hat or jacket and he is holding a guitar.
There is a second man in the photo who is round-faced with soft features. It
supposedly is Johnny Shines and I simply could not make a determination on this
although I knew him well in his late years.
Actually, there is a mention of a Johnson/Shines photo at the Johnson movie site:
http://www.robertjohnsonfilm.com/Notes.html

"Robert Johnson's traveling companion, blues legend Johnny Shines claimed there was a photo taken of himself and Johnson by a woman named Johnnie Mae Crowder in Hughes, Arkansas, in 1937 and later published in a local newspaper. However, the photo has never surfaced."

Tom

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Joel Fritz
2007-08-21 20:47:23 UTC
Permalink
When I bought the lp way back in the mists of time I didn't know about
the legend. The record looked interesting to me and I got completely
hooked in first two minutes of side one. Then I learned the mythology.

Johnson isn't the only delta player from his era that never got much
recognition. The big example is Hacksaw Harney. Before WWII he made
two sides backing up an accordion playing singer. Robert Lockwood
called him the best player he'd heard. The album he made after he had
had a stroke gives an idea of his talent. Lockwood also said that Harney
was a better piano player than he was a guitar player.

Skip James, Son House, and Charley Patton weren't as commercially
successful as the big names either. The singles Robert Lockwood
recorded in 1941 are as good as almost any pre-war blues record.
Post by Dick Waterman
A recently had a visit from a senior writer from "Vanity Fair" who has been
given both time and budget to bring forth a major piece on Robert Johnson. Now
it is certainly noteworthy that a publication of their stature across the
global literary pantheon will undertake a project of this scope.
The writer's purpose seems to pose the question, "Why Robert Johnson? What is
so special about this one musician that creates an iconic status now seven
decades after his death?" He was not a major commercial success in his own
lifetime and musicians such as Leroy Carr, Kokomo Arnold, Lonnie Johnson and others
were much more accepted within the black community than Johnson was.
Blues-L web site: http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/
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E Willett
2007-08-21 21:19:42 UTC
Permalink
The only 1941 Robert Lockwood I have a copy of (on CD) is "Little Boy Blue"...and I love it!
George
----- Original Message -----
From: Joel Fritz<mailto:***@comcast.net>
To: BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG<mailto:BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .


When I bought the lp way back in the mists of time I didn't know about
the legend. The record looked interesting to me and I got completely
hooked in first two minutes of side one. Then I learned the mythology.

Johnson isn't the only delta player from his era that never got much
recognition. The big example is Hacksaw Harney. Before WWII he made
two sides backing up an accordion playing singer. Robert Lockwood
called him the best player he'd heard. The album he made after he had
had a stroke gives an idea of his talent. Lockwood also said that Harney
was a better piano player than he was a guitar player.

Skip James, Son House, and Charley Patton weren't as commercially
successful as the big names either. The singles Robert Lockwood
recorded in 1941 are as good as almost any pre-war blues record.
Post by Dick Waterman
A recently had a visit from a senior writer from "Vanity Fair" who has been
given both time and budget to bring forth a major piece on Robert Johnson. Now
it is certainly noteworthy that a publication of their stature across the
global literary pantheon will undertake a project of this scope.
The writer's purpose seems to pose the question, "Why Robert Johnson? What is
so special about this one musician that creates an iconic status now seven
decades after his death?" He was not a major commercial success in his own
lifetime and musicians such as Leroy Carr, Kokomo Arnold, Lonnie Johnson and others
were much more accepted within the black community than Johnson was.
Blues-L web site: http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/<http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/>
Archives & web interface: http://lists.netspace.org/archives/blues-l.html<http://lists.netspace.org/archives/blues-l.html>
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Joel Fritz
2007-08-21 21:51:28 UTC
Permalink
There's a JSP box called "When the Levee Breaks" that has all four
songs. I think it's the only compilation that has all four. In 1941
Lockwood was already doing more sophisticated harmony. Even so his
guitar playing is completely true to the tradition.
Post by E Willett
The only 1941 Robert Lockwood I have a copy of (on CD) is "Little Boy
Blue"...and I love it!
George
----- Original Message -----
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:44 PM
*Subject:* Re: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .
When I bought the lp way back in the mists of time I didn't know about
the legend. The record looked interesting to me and I got completely
hooked in first two minutes of side one. Then I learned the mythology.
Johnson isn't the only delta player from his era that never got much
recognition. The big example is Hacksaw Harney. Before WWII he made
two sides backing up an accordion playing singer. Robert Lockwood
called him the best player he'd heard. The album he made after he had
had a stroke gives an idea of his talent. Lockwood also said that Harney
was a better piano player than he was a guitar player.
Skip James, Son House, and Charley Patton weren't as commercially
successful as the big names either. The singles Robert Lockwood
recorded in 1941 are as good as almost any pre-war blues record.
Post by Dick Waterman
A recently had a visit from a senior writer from "Vanity Fair"
who has been
Post by Dick Waterman
given both time and budget to bring forth a major piece on
Robert Johnson. Now
Post by Dick Waterman
it is certainly noteworthy that a publication of their stature
across the
Post by Dick Waterman
global literary pantheon will undertake a project of this scope.
The writer's purpose seems to pose the question, "Why Robert
Johnson? What is
Post by Dick Waterman
so special about this one musician that creates an iconic status
now seven
Post by Dick Waterman
decades after his death?" He was not a major commercial success
in his own
Post by Dick Waterman
lifetime and musicians such as Leroy Carr, Kokomo Arnold, Lonnie
Johnson and others
Post by Dick Waterman
were much more accepted within the black community than Johnson was.
Blues-L web site: http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/
<http://www.netspace.org/%7Eblues-l/>
http://lists.netspace.org/archives/blues-l.html
NetSpace LISTSERV(R) software donated by L-Soft, Inc.
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--
It's never too late to do something your parents didn't want you to do.
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Fractious felines: http://ratemykitten.com/my/?gallery=willie_mctell

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E Willett
2007-08-22 20:08:35 UTC
Permalink
Sadly, I was late to the party With Robert Lockwood. I'd only been a fan for 2-3 years when he died, and I never got to see him..
George
----- Original Message -----
From: Joel Fritz<mailto:***@comcast.net>
To: BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG<mailto:BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .


There's a JSP box called "When the Levee Breaks" that has all four
songs. I think it's the only compilation that has all four. In 1941
Lockwood was already doing more sophisticated harmony. Even so his
guitar playing is completely true to the tradition.
Post by E Willett
The only 1941 Robert Lockwood I have a copy of (on CD) is "Little Boy
Blue"...and I love it!
George
----- Original Message -----
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:44 PM
*Subject:* Re: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .
When I bought the lp way back in the mists of time I didn't know about
the legend. The record looked interesting to me and I got completely
hooked in first two minutes of side one. Then I learned the mythology.
Johnson isn't the only delta player from his era that never got much
recognition. The big example is Hacksaw Harney. Before WWII he made
two sides backing up an accordion playing singer. Robert Lockwood
called him the best player he'd heard. The album he made after he had
had a stroke gives an idea of his talent. Lockwood also said that Harney
was a better piano player than he was a guitar player.
Skip James, Son House, and Charley Patton weren't as commercially
successful as the big names either. The singles Robert Lockwood
recorded in 1941 are as good as almost any pre-war blues record.
Post by Dick Waterman
A recently had a visit from a senior writer from "Vanity Fair"
who has been
Post by Dick Waterman
given both time and budget to bring forth a major piece on
Robert Johnson. Now
Post by Dick Waterman
it is certainly noteworthy that a publication of their stature
across the
Post by Dick Waterman
global literary pantheon will undertake a project of this scope.
The writer's purpose seems to pose the question, "Why Robert
Johnson? What is
Post by Dick Waterman
so special about this one musician that creates an iconic status
now seven
Post by Dick Waterman
decades after his death?" He was not a major commercial success
in his own
Post by Dick Waterman
lifetime and musicians such as Leroy Carr, Kokomo Arnold, Lonnie
Johnson and others
Post by Dick Waterman
were much more accepted within the black community than Johnson was.
Blues-L web site: http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/<http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/>
<http://www.netspace.org/%7Eblues-l/<http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/>>
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It's never too late to do something your parents didn't want you to do.
When that time comes Barrelhouse Solly will be there for you. He cares.


Tunes: http://www.myspace.com/barrelhousesolly<http://www.myspace.com/barrelhousesolly>
Fractious felines: http://ratemykitten.com/my/?gallery=willie_mctell<http://ratemykitten.com/my/?gallery=willie_mctell>

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Dick Waterman
2007-08-21 21:12:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joel Fritz
Johnson isn't the only delta player from his era that never got much
recognition.  The big example is Hacksaw Harney.  Before WWII he made
two sides backing up an accordion playing singer.  Robert Lockwood
called him the best player he'd heard.  The album he made after he had
had a stroke gives an idea of his talent. Lockwood also said that Harney
was a better piano player than he was a guitar player.
The Boston Blues Society brought Harney to Cambridge to play in the early
1970s. I don't recall if it was recorded but it might have been. He split the
show with Houston Stackhouse.

Dick Waterman
Oxford, MS
www.dickwaterman.com



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Joel Fritz
2007-08-21 21:51:20 UTC
Permalink
AFAIK the only recording he made when he was rediscovered was one on
Adelphi, which is currently in print on cd. I'd love to hear what he
sounded like before his stroke. He was on the folk circuit before he
had it. I'd love to have heard the show with Harney and Stackhouse.
Post by Dick Waterman
Post by Joel Fritz
Johnson isn't the only delta player from his era that never got much
recognition. The big example is Hacksaw Harney. Before WWII he made
two sides backing up an accordion playing singer. Robert Lockwood
called him the best player he'd heard. The album he made after he had
had a stroke gives an idea of his talent. Lockwood also said that Harney
was a better piano player than he was a guitar player.
The Boston Blues Society brought Harney to Cambridge to play in the early
1970s. I don't recall if it was recorded but it might have been. He split the
show with Houston Stackhouse.
Dick Waterman
Oxford, MS
www.dickwaterman.com
**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Blues-L web site: http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/
Archives & web interface: http://lists.netspace.org/archives/blues-l.html
NetSpace LISTSERV(R) software donated by L-Soft, Inc. http://www.lsoft.com
--
It's never too late to do something your parents didn't want you to do.
When that time comes Barrelhouse Solly will be there for you. He cares.


Tunes: http://www.myspace.com/barrelhousesolly
Fractious felines: http://ratemykitten.com/my/?gallery=willie_mctell

Blues-L web site: http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/
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Patrick Morris
2007-08-22 14:58:59 UTC
Permalink
As ever we have a veritibable font of info in our Blues-L member, Mr Waterman!
Houston Stackhouse, the Cryin Won't Help You Blues singer. I've not heard his name mentioned in some time. I believe his son is still preforming...?

Patrick

Dick Waterman <***@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 8/21/07 3:48:09 PM, ***@comcast.net writes:


The Boston Blues Society brought Harney to Cambridge to play in the early
1970s. I don't recall if it was recorded but it might have been. He split the
show with Houston Stackhouse.

Dick Waterman
Oxford, MS
www.dickwaterman.com



**************************************
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"To make a bad day worse, spend it wishing for the impossible." -- Calvin and Hobbes

"Life, if you're luck and work at it, is one long slow release from ignorance! " - Hunter S. Thompson


"I think age is a very high price to pay for maturity." - Tom Stoppard


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Tom Muck
2007-08-22 15:07:28 UTC
Permalink
"Crying Won't Help You" was by Robert Nighthawk, but was on the same CD from Testament (Masters of Modern Blues) that Houston Stackhouse was on.

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Morris" <***@btinternet.com>
To: <BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .
Post by Patrick Morris
As ever we have a veritibable font of info in our Blues-L member, Mr Waterman!
Houston Stackhouse, the Cryin Won't Help You Blues singer. I've not heard his name mentioned in some time. I believe his son is still preforming...?
Patrick
The Boston Blues Society brought Harney to Cambridge to play in the early
1970s. I don't recall if it was recorded but it might have been. He split the
show with Houston Stackhouse.
Dick Waterman
Oxford, MS
www.dickwaterman.com
**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Blues-L web site: http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/
Archives & web interface: http://lists.netspace.org/archives/blues-l.html
NetSpace LISTSERV(R) software donated by L-Soft, Inc. http://www.lsoft.com
"To make a bad day worse, spend it wishing for the impossible." -- Calvin and Hobbes
"Life, if you're luck and work at it, is one long slow release from ignorance! " - Hunter S. Thompson
"I think age is a very high price to pay for maturity." - Tom Stoppard
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Patrick Morris
2007-08-22 15:37:05 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, about that! I'm sure that I had a CD a few years ago titled, 'Crying Won't Help You' by Houston Stackhouse Sr. And somewhere around the time I bought it I heard that his son was carrying on the tradition, so to speak.
Cheers
Patrick -- in a wet, very windy August winters day in London!

Tom Muck <***@maild.inte-net.com> wrote:
"Crying Won't Help You" was by Robert Nighthawk, but was on the same CD from Testament (Masters of Modern Blues) that Houston Stackhouse was on.

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Morris"

To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .
As
"To make a bad day worse, spend it wishing for the impossible." -- Calvin and Hobbes

"Life, if you're luck and work at it, is one long slow release from ignorance! " - Hunter S. Thompson


"I think age is a very high price to pay for maturity." - Tom Stoppard


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Tom Muck
2007-08-22 15:39:47 UTC
Permalink
Actually you are correct. I wasn't aware of this one. Thanks. :-)

Tom


----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Morris" <***@btinternet.com>
To: <BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .
Post by Patrick Morris
Sorry, about that! I'm sure that I had a CD a few years ago titled, 'Crying Won't Help You' by Houston Stackhouse Sr. And somewhere around the time I bought it I heard that his son was carrying on the tradition, so to speak.
Cheers
Patrick -- in a wet, very windy August winters day in London!
"Crying Won't Help You" was by Robert Nighthawk, but was on the same CD from Testament (Masters of Modern Blues) that Houston Stackhouse was on.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Morris"
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .
As
"To make a bad day worse, spend it wishing for the impossible." -- Calvin and Hobbes
"Life, if you're luck and work at it, is one long slow release from ignorance! " - Hunter S. Thompson
"I think age is a very high price to pay for maturity." - Tom Stoppard
Blues-L web site: http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/
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Walter Potter
2007-08-21 22:38:13 UTC
Permalink
This is interesting to say the least. I have to wonder if Johnson's
music was distributed or advertised well in the black community at the
time. Of the songs he recorded, were they all given roughly the same
amount of promotion or even pressed in the same quantities? What
parameters did the mostly white run record companies at the time use to
determine how many records to press and how much effort to put into
promotion? Maybe they just didn't try to sell his music all that hard.
Maybe the record company had a sure bet they promoted harder at the time
than the relative new-comer. I certainly don't know. I do think
Johnson's music stands on its own merits but is, um .. not over-rated
but maybe over emphasized in the current view of the history of the blues.
--
Walter
Post by Dick Waterman
A recently had a visit from a senior writer from "Vanity Fair" who has been
given both time and budget to bring forth a major piece on Robert Johnson. Now
it is certainly noteworthy that a publication of their stature across the
global literary pantheon will undertake a project of this scope.
The writer's purpose seems to pose the question, "Why Robert Johnson? What is
so special about this one musician that creates an iconic status now seven
decades after his death?" He was not a major commercial success in his own
lifetime and musicians such as Leroy Carr, Kokomo Arnold, Lonnie Johnson and others
were much more accepted within the black community than Johnson was.
The intriguing part of his visit was the appearance of a photograph that
supposedly is a third image of Johnson. I had the opportunity to give it a long
look and, although I am cynical and skeptic to the bone, I admit that I am
convinced that it might well be him.
He is wearing a white shirt, no hat or jacket and he is holding a guitar.
There is a second man in the photo who is round-faced with soft features. It
supposedly is Johnny Shines and I simply could not make a determination on this
although I knew him well in his late years.
The man in the photo might or might not have a 'lazy' left eye that Johnson
supposedly had. However, in plain sight, are those long spidery thin fingers of
the left hand across the strings. It is a pretty compelling image to view.
I tuned him over to local Oxford attorney Tom Freeland, an expert on the
Mississippi inheritance circus that has evolved over the years regarding the
estate. I gave him contact information for Steve LaVere, Elijah Wald, Peter
Gurlanick, Gayle Dean Wardlow and some others.
He will be working on this for some period of time with no publication date
set. I suspect they'll try for the 70th anniversary of his death which is next
Spring.
So it asks the question of whether Robert Johnson was a black man who
achieved fame through his musical accomplishments or is he a white man's creation of
mythology (i.e. the crossroads legend) completely apart from the
African-American world?
I know that the Creative Editor of "Vanity Fair" (David Friend) is a huge
blues fan and he has given this established writer free rein to bring forth some
definitive findings.
Stay tuned . . .
Dick Waterman
Oxford, MS
www.dickwaterman.com
**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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E Willett
2007-08-21 23:01:28 UTC
Permalink
I've read that the first release was "Terraplane Blues", and it was mildly successful. The country blues was out of fashion with the Blues audience of the time, i.e. the Black audience. The market had moved to more sophisticated styles such as Leroy Carr (already dead when Johnson recorded), Tampa Red, Memphis Minnie, etc...At least that's my understanding of the situation.
George
----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Potter<mailto:maxdog-blues-***@COMCAST.NET>
To: BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG<mailto:BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .


This is interesting to say the least. I have to wonder if Johnson's
music was distributed or advertised well in the black community at the
time. Of the songs he recorded, were they all given roughly the same
amount of promotion or even pressed in the same quantities? What
parameters did the mostly white run record companies at the time use to
determine how many records to press and how much effort to put into
promotion? Maybe they just didn't try to sell his music all that hard.
Maybe the record company had a sure bet they promoted harder at the time
than the relative new-comer. I certainly don't know. I do think
Johnson's music stands on its own merits but is, um .. not over-rated
but maybe over emphasized in the current view of the history of the blues.
--
Walter
Post by Dick Waterman
A recently had a visit from a senior writer from "Vanity Fair" who has been
given both time and budget to bring forth a major piece on Robert Johnson. Now
it is certainly noteworthy that a publication of their stature across the
global literary pantheon will undertake a project of this scope.
The writer's purpose seems to pose the question, "Why Robert Johnson? What is
so special about this one musician that creates an iconic status now seven
decades after his death?" He was not a major commercial success in his own
lifetime and musicians such as Leroy Carr, Kokomo Arnold, Lonnie Johnson and others
were much more accepted within the black community than Johnson was.
The intriguing part of his visit was the appearance of a photograph that
supposedly is a third image of Johnson. I had the opportunity to give it a long
look and, although I am cynical and skeptic to the bone, I admit that I am
convinced that it might well be him.
He is wearing a white shirt, no hat or jacket and he is holding a guitar.
There is a second man in the photo who is round-faced with soft features. It
supposedly is Johnny Shines and I simply could not make a determination on this
although I knew him well in his late years.
The man in the photo might or might not have a 'lazy' left eye that Johnson
supposedly had. However, in plain sight, are those long spidery thin fingers of
the left hand across the strings. It is a pretty compelling image to view.
I tuned him over to local Oxford attorney Tom Freeland, an expert on the
Mississippi inheritance circus that has evolved over the years regarding the
estate. I gave him contact information for Steve LaVere, Elijah Wald, Peter
Gurlanick, Gayle Dean Wardlow and some others.
He will be working on this for some period of time with no publication date
set. I suspect they'll try for the 70th anniversary of his death which is next
Spring.
So it asks the question of whether Robert Johnson was a black man who
achieved fame through his musical accomplishments or is he a white man's creation of
mythology (i.e. the crossroads legend) completely apart from the
African-American world?
I know that the Creative Editor of "Vanity Fair" (David Friend) is a huge
blues fan and he has given this established writer free rein to bring forth some
definitive findings.
Stay tuned . . .
Dick Waterman
Oxford, MS
www.dickwaterman.com<http://www.dickwaterman.com/>
**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour>
Blues-L web site: http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/<http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/>
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Jim Wells
2007-08-21 23:02:09 UTC
Permalink
The YouTube version of a film I shot of Uncle Joe Jonas singing "The Thrill
Is Gone" at Henry Qualls' house and birthday party in Elmo, Texas several
years ago has now passed the 20,000 views level!!!

And many of the very young people who have gone to it and make up most of
the views (looking for Joe Jonas of the Jonas Brothers, a very popular
teenage rock band in NJ) are starting to leave compliments and are enjoying
the BLUES by our Joe!!!! New convertees to the blues, hopefully...

Who knows maybe a joint project might come to pass... Wonder what true blues
tune might work with them and not wind up being more rock...hmmmm...

By the way, if you're interested in the film (whose hand-held quality isn't
great, I fully admit - but atleast it's REAL and a true performance despite
some), the URL is:



Rgds...Jim

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Ron Weinstock
2007-08-21 23:51:58 UTC
Permalink
One might also add that most of Johnson' recordings were somewhat derivative
of such artists as Carr and Lonnie Johnson. One thing is clear is that if
Robert Johnson had not lived, blues would have developed pretty much as it
did, whereas without Lonnie Johnson (and Johnson is reported to called
himself one of the Johnson boys) or Leroy Carr, the music would have been
fundamentally different. These artists were much more integral to the
development and evolution of blues than Johnson.

I should note that at the Poconos I had a lively discussion with the fine
guitarist with Jody Williams and he emphatically made these points which I
find quite reasonable and emphasized a lot of discussion of Johnson's
influence comes from after the release of the lp, King of the Delta Blues
Singers.


Ron
Post by E Willett
I've read that the first release was "Terraplane Blues", and it was mildly
successful. The country blues was out of fashion with the Blues audience of
the time, i.e. the Black audience. The market had moved to more
sophisticated styles such as Leroy Carr (already dead when Johnson
recorded), Tampa Red, Memphis Minnie, etc...At least that's my understanding
of the situation.
Post by E Willett
George
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .
This is interesting to say the least. I have to wonder if Johnson's
music was distributed or advertised well in the black community at the
time. Of the songs he recorded, were they all given roughly the same
amount of promotion or even pressed in the same quantities? What
parameters did the mostly white run record companies at the time use to
determine how many records to press and how much effort to put into
promotion? Maybe they just didn't try to sell his music all that hard.
Maybe the record company had a sure bet they promoted harder at the time
than the relative new-comer. I certainly don't know. I do think
Johnson's music stands on its own merits but is, um .. not over-rated
but maybe over emphasized in the current view of the history of the blues.
--
Walter
Post by Dick Waterman
A recently had a visit from a senior writer from "Vanity Fair" who has
been
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
given both time and budget to bring forth a major piece on Robert
Johnson. Now
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
it is certainly noteworthy that a publication of their stature across the
global literary pantheon will undertake a project of this scope.
The writer's purpose seems to pose the question, "Why Robert Johnson?
What is
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
so special about this one musician that creates an iconic status now seven
decades after his death?" He was not a major commercial success in his own
lifetime and musicians such as Leroy Carr, Kokomo Arnold, Lonnie
Johnson and others
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
were much more accepted within the black community than Johnson was.
The intriguing part of his visit was the appearance of a photograph that
supposedly is a third image of Johnson. I had the opportunity to give
it a long
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
look and, although I am cynical and skeptic to the bone, I admit that I am
convinced that it might well be him.
He is wearing a white shirt, no hat or jacket and he is holding a guitar.
There is a second man in the photo who is round-faced with soft
features. It
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
supposedly is Johnny Shines and I simply could not make a determination
on this
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
although I knew him well in his late years.
The man in the photo might or might not have a 'lazy' left eye that
Johnson
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
supposedly had. However, in plain sight, are those long spidery thin
fingers of
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
the left hand across the strings. It is a pretty compelling image to view.
I tuned him over to local Oxford attorney Tom Freeland, an expert on the
Mississippi inheritance circus that has evolved over the years
regarding the
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
estate. I gave him contact information for Steve LaVere, Elijah Wald,
Peter
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
Gurlanick, Gayle Dean Wardlow and some others.
He will be working on this for some period of time with no publication
date
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
set. I suspect they'll try for the 70th anniversary of his death which
is next
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
Spring.
So it asks the question of whether Robert Johnson was a black man who
achieved fame through his musical accomplishments or is he a white
man's creation of
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
mythology (i.e. the crossroads legend) completely apart from the
African-American world?
I know that the Creative Editor of "Vanity Fair" (David Friend) is a huge
blues fan and he has given this established writer free rein to bring
forth some
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
definitive findings.
Stay tuned . . .
Dick Waterman
Oxford, MS
www.dickwaterman.com<http://www.dickwaterman.com/>
**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour>
http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/<http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/>
http://lists.netspace.org/archives/blues-l.html<http://lists.netspace.org/archives/blues-l.html>
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
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Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
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Joel Fritz
2007-08-22 00:41:47 UTC
Permalink
Most of Johnson's recorded material was the pinnacle of the Delta
frailing style which was far from new when he recorded. He also did
some fingerpicking and the regular chording on "Hot Tamales." If you
can rely on what contemporaries had to say, his recorded work was a
small sample of what he could do. Even so, considering the number of
players who came from the same area he did, you'd think he'd have had
more followers. Johnny Shines and Robert Lockwood could do his style
very well but they generally played in a more modern way.

Muddy Waters' style probably owes more to Son House, whom he knew than
Johnson whom he never met.

I think the Johnson legend got going when John Hammond wanted to get him
for the Spirituals to Swing concerts and couldn't find him. After that
it grew.

Whether or not Johnson was a major contributor to blues evolution, he
sure made some great records.
Post by Ron Weinstock
One might also add that most of Johnson' recordings were somewhat derivative
of such artists as Carr and Lonnie Johnson. One thing is clear is that if
Robert Johnson had not lived, blues would have developed pretty much as it
did, whereas without Lonnie Johnson (and Johnson is reported to called
himself one of the Johnson boys) or Leroy Carr, the music would have been
fundamentally different. These artists were much more integral to the
development and evolution of blues than Johnson.
I should note that at the Poconos I had a lively discussion with the fine
guitarist with Jody Williams and he emphatically made these points which I
find quite reasonable and emphasized a lot of discussion of Johnson's
influence comes from after the release of the lp, King of the Delta Blues
Singers.
Ron
Post by E Willett
I've read that the first release was "Terraplane Blues", and it was mildly
successful. The country blues was out of fashion with the Blues audience of
the time, i.e. the Black audience. The market had moved to more
sophisticated styles such as Leroy Carr (already dead when Johnson
recorded), Tampa Red, Memphis Minnie, etc...At least that's my understanding
of the situation.
Post by E Willett
George
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .
This is interesting to say the least. I have to wonder if Johnson's
music was distributed or advertised well in the black community at the
time. Of the songs he recorded, were they all given roughly the same
amount of promotion or even pressed in the same quantities? What
parameters did the mostly white run record companies at the time use to
determine how many records to press and how much effort to put into
promotion? Maybe they just didn't try to sell his music all that hard.
Maybe the record company had a sure bet they promoted harder at the time
than the relative new-comer. I certainly don't know. I do think
Johnson's music stands on its own merits but is, um .. not over-rated
but maybe over emphasized in the current view of the history of the blues.
--
Walter
Post by Dick Waterman
A recently had a visit from a senior writer from "Vanity Fair" who has
been
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
given both time and budget to bring forth a major piece on Robert
Johnson. Now
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
it is certainly noteworthy that a publication of their stature across the
global literary pantheon will undertake a project of this scope.
The writer's purpose seems to pose the question, "Why Robert Johnson?
What is
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
so special about this one musician that creates an iconic status now seven
decades after his death?" He was not a major commercial success in his own
lifetime and musicians such as Leroy Carr, Kokomo Arnold, Lonnie
Johnson and others
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
were much more accepted within the black community than Johnson was.
The intriguing part of his visit was the appearance of a photograph that
supposedly is a third image of Johnson. I had the opportunity to give
it a long
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
look and, although I am cynical and skeptic to the bone, I admit that I am
convinced that it might well be him.
He is wearing a white shirt, no hat or jacket and he is holding a guitar.
There is a second man in the photo who is round-faced with soft
features. It
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
supposedly is Johnny Shines and I simply could not make a determination
on this
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
although I knew him well in his late years.
The man in the photo might or might not have a 'lazy' left eye that
Johnson
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
supposedly had. However, in plain sight, are those long spidery thin
fingers of
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
the left hand across the strings. It is a pretty compelling image to view.
I tuned him over to local Oxford attorney Tom Freeland, an expert on the
Mississippi inheritance circus that has evolved over the years
regarding the
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
estate. I gave him contact information for Steve LaVere, Elijah Wald,
Peter
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
Gurlanick, Gayle Dean Wardlow and some others.
He will be working on this for some period of time with no publication
date
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
set. I suspect they'll try for the 70th anniversary of his death which
is next
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
Spring.
So it asks the question of whether Robert Johnson was a black man who
achieved fame through his musical accomplishments or is he a white
man's creation of
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
mythology (i.e. the crossroads legend) completely apart from the
African-American world?
I know that the Creative Editor of "Vanity Fair" (David Friend) is a huge
blues fan and he has given this established writer free rein to bring
forth some
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
definitive findings.
Stay tuned . . .
Dick Waterman
Oxford, MS
www.dickwaterman.com<http://www.dickwaterman.com/>
**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour>
http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/<http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/>
http://lists.netspace.org/archives/blues-l.html<http://lists.netspace.org/archives/blues-l.html>
Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
NetSpace LISTSERV(R) software donated by L-Soft, Inc.
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Post by E Willett
Post by Dick Waterman
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--
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When that time comes Barrelhouse Solly will be there for you. He cares.


Tunes: http://www.myspace.com/barrelhousesolly
Fractious felines: http://ratemykitten.com/my/?gallery=willie_mctell

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E Willett
2007-08-22 21:13:24 UTC
Permalink
(Whether or not Johnson was a major contributor to blues evolution, he sure made some great records)

And that's why he's so well know for only 29 (?) tracks...
George
----- Original Message -----
From: Joel Fritz<mailto:***@comcast.net>
To: BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG<mailto:BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .


Most of Johnson's recorded material was the pinnacle of the Delta
frailing style which was far from new when he recorded. He also did
some fingerpicking and the regular chording on "Hot Tamales." If you
can rely on what contemporaries had to say, his recorded work was a
small sample of what he could do. Even so, considering the number of
players who came from the same area he did, you'd think he'd have had
more followers. Johnny Shines and Robert Lockwood could do his style
very well but they generally played in a more modern way.

Muddy Waters' style probably owes more to Son House, whom he knew than
Johnson whom he never met.

I think the Johnson legend got going when John Hammond wanted to get him
for the Spirituals to Swing concerts and couldn't find him. After that
it grew.

Whether or not Johnson was a major contributor to blues evolution, he
sure made some great records.


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James Miller
2007-08-23 02:49:29 UTC
Permalink
There is a great story of John Hammond and Son House and Robert Johnson
in Dick Waterman's excellent book "Between Midnight and Day."



-----Original Message-----
From: Blues Music List [mailto:BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG] On Behalf Of
E Willett
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 2:17 PM
To: BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG
Subject: Re: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .

(Whether or not Johnson was a major contributor to blues evolution, he
sure made some great records)

And that's why he's so well know for only 29 (?) tracks...
George
----- Original Message -----
From: Joel Fritz<mailto:***@comcast.net>
To: BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG<mailto:BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .


Most of Johnson's recorded material was the pinnacle of the Delta
frailing style which was far from new when he recorded. He also did
some fingerpicking and the regular chording on "Hot Tamales." If you
can rely on what contemporaries had to say, his recorded work was a
small sample of what he could do. Even so, considering the number of
players who came from the same area he did, you'd think he'd have had

more followers. Johnny Shines and Robert Lockwood could do his style
very well but they generally played in a more modern way.

Muddy Waters' style probably owes more to Son House, whom he knew
than
Johnson whom he never met.

I think the Johnson legend got going when John Hammond wanted to get
him
for the Spirituals to Swing concerts and couldn't find him. After
that
it grew.

Whether or not Johnson was a major contributor to blues evolution, he
sure made some great records.


Blues-L web site: http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/
Archives & web interface:
http://lists.netspace.org/archives/blues-l.html
NetSpace LISTSERV(R) software donated by L-Soft, Inc.
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E Willett
2007-08-23 09:03:01 UTC
Permalink
I just got the book last week....It ends with "Here's to Robert Johnson being dead", or words to that effect..
George
----- Original Message -----
From: James Miller<mailto:***@bigplanet.com>
To: 'E Willett'<mailto:***@msn.com> ; BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG<mailto:BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 10:48 PM
Subject: RE: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .


There is a great story of John Hammond and Son House and Robert Johnson
in Dick Waterman's excellent book "Between Midnight and Day."



-----Original Message-----
From: Blues Music List [mailto:BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG] On Behalf Of
E Willett
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 2:17 PM
To: BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG<mailto:BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG>
Subject: Re: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .

(Whether or not Johnson was a major contributor to blues evolution, he
sure made some great records)

And that's why he's so well know for only 29 (?) tracks...
George
----- Original Message -----
From: Joel Fritz<mailto:***@comcast.net<mailto:***@comcast.net>>
To: BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG<mailto:BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG<mailto:BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG%3Cmailto:BLUES-***@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG>>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: A third Robert Johnson photograph . . .


Most of Johnson's recorded material was the pinnacle of the Delta
frailing style which was far from new when he recorded. He also did
some fingerpicking and the regular chording on "Hot Tamales." If you
can rely on what contemporaries had to say, his recorded work was a
small sample of what he could do. Even so, considering the number of
players who came from the same area he did, you'd think he'd have had

more followers. Johnny Shines and Robert Lockwood could do his style
very well but they generally played in a more modern way.

Muddy Waters' style probably owes more to Son House, whom he knew
than
Johnson whom he never met.

I think the Johnson legend got going when John Hammond wanted to get
him
for the Spirituals to Swing concerts and couldn't find him. After
that
it grew.

Whether or not Johnson was a major contributor to blues evolution, he
sure made some great records.


Blues-L web site: http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/<http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/>
Archives & web interface:
http://lists.netspace.org/archives/blues-l.html<http://lists.netspace.org/archives/blues-l.html>
NetSpace LISTSERV(R) software donated by L-Soft, Inc.
http://www.lsoft.com<http://www.lsoft.com/>
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Jef Jaisun
2007-08-23 16:04:07 UTC
Permalink
"Frailing style?" That's a very common banjo picking method, but this
is the first time I've heard it applied to blues guitar styles. Can
you cite some artists who played that way?

http://www.frailing.com/ says:
The frailing discussed in this site is not what banjo players refer
to as frailing. To banjo players, 'frailing' means 'clawhammer', a
technique that is rythmically identical to what we teach here but
that involves downpicking, not up-picking. ...Frailing the Guitar,
published by Mel Bay Publications, contains tab, notation and a CD of
basic and advanced patterns and a half dozen or so fiddle tunes. It
also contains material on singer- songwriter accompaniment and a
section for those interested in using the delayed thumb in playing
blues. Note this book is not about clawhammer, but about the frailing
UPPICKING pattern. Most of the material, however, is interchangeable
with clawhammer style.


Jef
Post by Joel Fritz
Most of Johnson's recorded material was the pinnacle of the Delta
frailing style which was far from new when he recorded.
Blues-L web site: http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/
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Joel Fritz
2007-08-24 17:05:08 UTC
Permalink
Frailing in the sense of strumming mostly on the down stroke. I know
the banjo style includes, a lot of the time, a single note on the odd
numbered beat. Big Joe Williams is a good example. Henry Thomas did it
exclusively. Barbecue Bob did it on a lot of songs. It's
characteristic of a lot of Delta style songs in open G. Peetie
Wheatstraw's records where he played guitar are very similar to Big Joe
Williams. I just got a JSP box called "When the Levee Breaks," four
discs of songs by Mississippi players. It has a lot of examples.
Garfield Akers is just one of the people who played that way.

I'd call songs like "Preachin' Blues" frailing. I suppose to
differentiate it from the banjo style we could call it "Syncopated
Strumming" or something else.

This is a digression but "When the Levee Breaks" is a great
compilation. I've mentioned the Lockwood tunes but there are some other
wonderful players. It has people like Freddie Spruell, King Solomon
Hill--maybe the eeriest country blues sound on record, Willie "61"
Blackwell--lyrics like you've never heard. It has easter eggs like the
two recently discovered Son House sides and an interesting alternate
take of "Traveling Riverside Blues." You can get it for around $20 of
you shop for it.
Post by Jef Jaisun
"Frailing style?" That's a very common banjo picking method, but this
is the first time I've heard it applied to blues guitar styles. Can
you cite some artists who played that way?
The frailing discussed in this site is not what banjo players refer to
as frailing. To banjo players, 'frailing' means 'clawhammer', a
technique that is rythmically identical to what we teach here but that
involves downpicking, not up-picking. ...Frailing the Guitar,
published by Mel Bay Publications, contains tab, notation and a CD of
basic and advanced patterns and a half dozen or so fiddle tunes. It
also contains material on singer- songwriter accompaniment and a
section for those interested in using the delayed thumb in playing
blues. Note this book is not about clawhammer, but about the frailing
UPPICKING pattern. Most of the material, however, is interchangeable
with clawhammer style.
Jef
Post by Joel Fritz
Most of Johnson's recorded material was the pinnacle of the Delta
frailing style which was far from new when he recorded.
Blues-L web site: http://www.netspace.org/~blues-l/
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NetSpace LISTSERV(R) software donated by L-Soft, Inc.
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To unsubscribe from BLUES-L, send an email with the message
--
It's never too late to do something your parents didn't want you to do.
When that time comes Barrelhouse Solly will be there for you. He cares.


Tunes: http://www.myspace.com/barrelhousesolly
Fractious felines: http://ratemykitten.com/my/?gallery=willie_mctell

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