Discussion:
A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'
(too old to reply)
Jimmy Jacobs
2012-05-21 19:03:49 UTC
Permalink
http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/ct-ent-0521-blues-conferen
ce-20120521,0,2623646.column



It's an old argument but still relevant.






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mannish
2012-05-21 22:00:05 UTC
Permalink
a lot of people shay away from the discussion but I like it as long it
does NOT get heated - passionate but no heat
L

On 5/21/2012 12:06 PM, Jimmy Jacobs wrote:
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/ct-ent-0521-blues-conferen
> ce-20120521,0,2623646.column
>
>
>
> It's an old argument but still relevant.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Harri Haka
2012-05-21 23:52:13 UTC
Permalink
As a small time European promoter I must say it goes the other way over
here. Venues would prefer black musicians but not that many are
available. Seems that a lot of gifted young black musicians shy away
from the blues and go for hip-hop or rap. On the other hand, many white
musicians are obsessed with the blues and practice it day in day out.
Luckily, however, we still have rising stars like Omar Coleman and
Marquise Knox (to mention a few) who have huge talent. A white musician
can learn to play technically flawless blues. But when it comes to
vocals, hardly any of them can capture the feeling, guts and credibility
of their black colleagues. And in the end, singing is the essence of the
blues.
Harri from Finland

22.5.2012 0:50, mannish kirjoitti:
> a lot of people shay away from the discussion but I like it as long it
> does NOT get heated - passionate but no heat
> L
>
> On 5/21/2012 12:06 PM, Jimmy Jacobs wrote:
>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/ct-ent-0521-blues-conferen
>>
>> ce-20120521,0,2623646.column
>>
>>
>>
>> It's an old argument but still relevant.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Ton Wanten
2012-05-22 10:18:38 UTC
Permalink
IMHO Harri is right.
As a radio "producer", I receive lot's and lot's of music every week.
Intro's often impress me a lot, great guitar playing or harp playing,
after the vocals kick inŠ. Well, I miss something..

Ton
Triple R Blues Radio
The Netherlands

On dinsdag22-05-12 01:48, "Harri Haka" <***@GMAIL.COM> wrote:

>As a small time European promoter I must say it goes the other way over
>here. Venues would prefer black musicians but not that many are
>available. Seems that a lot of gifted young black musicians shy away
>from the blues and go for hip-hop or rap. On the other hand, many white
>musicians are obsessed with the blues and practice it day in day out.
>Luckily, however, we still have rising stars like Omar Coleman and
>Marquise Knox (to mention a few) who have huge talent. A white musician
>can learn to play technically flawless blues. But when it comes to
>vocals, hardly any of them can capture the feeling, guts and credibility
>of their black colleagues. And in the end, singing is the essence of the
>blues.
>Harri from Finland
>
> 22.5.2012 0:50, mannish kirjoitti:
>> a lot of people shay away from the discussion but I like it as long it
>> does NOT get heated - passionate but no heat
>> L
>>
>> On 5/21/2012 12:06 PM, Jimmy Jacobs wrote:
>>>
>>>http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/ct-ent-0521-blues-conf
>>>eren
>>>
>>> ce-20120521,0,2623646.column
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's an old argument but still relevant.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> 05/21/12
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mannish
2012-05-22 22:26:26 UTC
Permalink
Someone I interviewed, I think it was the late great Johnny Copeland
said part of the reason is people do not grow up singing in the church
like they did back in the day.

I think it is a generation thing moreso than a race thing. Also black
church's seem to put more emphasis on the soulfulness of the singing. If
you look at the great soul/blues singers a lot of them started in the church
L

On 5/22/2012 5:12 AM, Ton Wanten wrote:
> IMHO Harri is right.
> As a radio "producer", I receive lot's and lot's of music every week.
> Intro's often impress me a lot, great guitar playing or harp playing,
> after the vocals kick in . Well, I miss something..
>
> Ton
> Triple R Blues Radio
> The Netherlands
>
> On dinsdag22-05-12 01:48, "Harri Haka"<***@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
>> As a small time European promoter I must say it goes the other way over
>> here. Venues would prefer black musicians but not that many are
>> available. Seems that a lot of gifted young black musicians shy away
> >from the blues and go for hip-hop or rap. On the other hand, many white
>> musicians are obsessed with the blues and practice it day in day out.
>> Luckily, however, we still have rising stars like Omar Coleman and
>> Marquise Knox (to mention a few) who have huge talent. A white musician
>> can learn to play technically flawless blues. But when it comes to
>> vocals, hardly any of them can capture the feeling, guts and credibility
>> of their black colleagues. And in the end, singing is the essence of the
>> blues.
>> Harri from Finland
>>
>> 22.5.2012 0:50, mannish kirjoitti:
>>> a lot of people shay away from the discussion but I like it as long it
>>> does NOT get heated - passionate but no heat
>>> L
>>>
>>> On 5/21/2012 12:06 PM, Jimmy Jacobs wrote:
>>>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/ct-ent-0521-blues-conf
>>>> eren
>>>>
>>>> ce-20120521,0,2623646.column
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's an old argument but still relevant.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 2012.0.2169 / Virus Database: 2425/5013 - Release Date:
>>>> 05/21/12
>>>>
>>>>
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Stan Erhart
2012-05-23 00:11:28 UTC
Permalink
I often wonder why vocals aren't always given the respect and prominence they deserve. Even guitar players who have good voices will gloss over the vocal part of a song in order to get to the long solo as soon as possible. I like instrumental prowess as much as anyone, but I'm of the opinion that solos are an extension of, or a compliment to, the vocals rather the other way around.

On a tangent to this: I like a little humor in shows, but when the humor takes center stage over the music, it kind of bugs me. OTOH, if the entertainer feels it, and the audience digs it, what can you say against it? It's entertainment, after all.

Regarding whites taking over the blues: I have differing opinions. I've had my share of put downs and resistance by musicians who feel they have a right to more gigs because of their credentials or history, regardless of their attitude and approach to the type of gigs that are available. So I feel for those who feel they're not getting their fair shake. But we can't sit on our butts for a minute, or expect that what we were doing yesterday will work today. It's a lot of work and stress keeping up and improving. And if someone uses their heritage, rather than what they can offer, to say they should be given more opportunities, I'm not sure that's right.

I know a couple of anglo blues DJ's who practically refuse to play white artists on their show because of their feelings about white vs black blues artists. For some reason, it doesn't bother them if the backup band is white, but it bothers them if the singer is. That doesn't seem right either. Fyi, this isn't a personal experience statement. It's an observation based on what those DJ's say about white entertainers in general - even though they're also white.

If we compared blues & race to baseball, we wouldn't want to go back to the days when only whites were allowed to play professional ball - anymore than we should go back to the days when only blacks could play blues or jazz. White players respect those art forms, and work their butts off to learn to play them. As do the black players. Both camps are deserving. Fortunately, among musicians themselves, both respect each other because of their interest and abilities rather than their color. At least I believe that's the case, and my personal experience tends to bear it out. When it comes to gigs and promotion, it's gets trickier, because we're trying to figure out what it takes to get an audience out. And race is only one piece of that formula.

On a more social level, I think this country is managing to keep the Jim Crow era alive by creating and enforcing laws that are designed to incarcerate and discriminate against people of color. And that REALLY bugs me. We don't need people in prison who don't pose a physical threat to others. It's not only plain wrong, and discriminatory, and demeaning - we can't afford it. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I'd say there's a conspiracy going on. ;)

Stan
-----Original Message-----
From: mannish <***@WINDSTREAM.NET>
Sender: Blues Music List <BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 17:23:43
To: <BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM>
Reply-To: mannish <***@WINDSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'

Someone I interviewed, I think it was the late great Johnny Copeland
said part of the reason is people do not grow up singing in the church
like they did back in the day.

I think it is a generation thing moreso than a race thing. Also black
church's seem to put more emphasis on the soulfulness of the singing. If
you look at the great soul/blues singers a lot of them started in the church
L

On 5/22/2012 5:12 AM, Ton Wanten wrote:
> IMHO Harri is right.
> As a radio "producer", I receive lot's and lot's of music every week.
> Intro's often impress me a lot, great guitar playing or harp playing,
> after the vocals kick in . Well, I miss something..
>
> Ton
> Triple R Blues Radio
> The Netherlands
>
> On dinsdag22-05-12 01:48, "Harri Haka"<***@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
>> As a small time European promoter I must say it goes the other way over
>> here. Venues would prefer black musicians but not that many are
>> available. Seems that a lot of gifted young black musicians shy away
> >from the blues and go for hip-hop or rap. On the other hand, many white
>> musicians are obsessed with the blues and practice it day in day out.
>> Luckily, however, we still have rising stars like Omar Coleman and
>> Marquise Knox (to mention a few) who have huge talent. A white musician
>> can learn to play technically flawless blues. But when it comes to
>> vocals, hardly any of them can capture the feeling, guts and credibility
>> of their black colleagues. And in the end, singing is the essence of the
>> blues.
>> Harri from Finland
>>
>> 22.5.2012 0:50, mannish kirjoitti:
>>> a lot of people shay away from the discussion but I like it as long it
>>> does NOT get heated - passionate but no heat
>>> L
>>>
>>> On 5/21/2012 12:06 PM, Jimmy Jacobs wrote:
>>>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/ct-ent-0521-blues-conf
>>>> eren
>>>>
>>>> ce-20120521,0,2623646.column
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's an old argument but still relevant.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ========================================
>>>> Archives& web interface:
>>>> http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML
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>>>> owner-BLUES-***@listserv.nethelps.com
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 2012.0.2169 / Virus Database: 2425/5013 - Release Date:
>>>> 05/21/12
>>>>
>>>>
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chuck 249
2012-05-23 02:20:14 UTC
Permalink
In no particular order, and keeping in mind that I could find hundreds
of other good examples, here are a couple of handfuls of white singers
that (imo) pulled off the blues vocal thing, convincingly. If there
is one common denominator, at least in the ones where there is video
footage, it is that they all seem to be giving the vocals their best
effort--which also works to separate the really good musicians from
the average, irregardless of color.

Angela Strehli and Marcia Ball
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdPMHuOhNkQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Sean Costello....who, I guess the best way to say it is, sings it with
a feeling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op8HfmZwAOI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWZoX7Vszq0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Canned Heat with the great Alan Wilson on vocals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QexOuH8GS-Y&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Peggy Lee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Kyk4hj_RUc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Paul Butterfield Blues Band
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3LEhfbKCSc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Steve Winwood and the Spencer Davis Group
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzX4I6H32vQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Barbara Dane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsKl22BqJuk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

John Nemeth w/ Kid Anderson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxeKlnHeiBk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Johnny Otis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOrQTh_Cq7U&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Nick Curran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMlO3uBNIMc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Ella Mae Morse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHaooA-GD80&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Doyle Bramhall Sr (from a Zuzu Bollin show)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxsRwFIhCqs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

chuck, in dallas

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j***@AOL.COM
2012-05-23 03:25:31 UTC
Permalink
In no particular order, and keeping in mind that I could find hundreds
of other good examples, here are a couple of handfuls of white singers
that (imo) pulled off the blues vocal thing, convincingly. If there
is one common denominator, at least in the ones where there is video
footage, it is that they all seem to be giving the vocals their best
effort--which also works to separate the really good musicians from
the average, irregardless of color.
-------------

I have watched this thread come around and you are all missing the point of the conference.

It was saying:

"I'm black and I'm in the blues world and I'm not working as much as I should be working because white folks are getting hired and that's wrong because it's MY birthright."

The conference was held in Chicago and - surprise - Mister Guy didn't drive his Royles Royce from his club to attend.

I appreciate all of you lending opinions about guitar solos and vocal styles but my late father had the right approach:

"The first time that someone tells you that's it's not about the money, you know . . . it's about the money."






Dick Waterman
1601 Buchanan Avenue
Oxford, MS 38655




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chuck 249
2012-05-23 09:35:20 UTC
Permalink
Is it always about the money? Isn't there, somewhere, the fables blues
man or woman who did it because (as the legend goes) "it was in him/her
and just had to come out." You know, like the football or baseball player
who right after they sign a multi million dollar a year deal has a press
conference to say, "I am glad to announce we have reached an agreement.
It was never about the money. That was never the issue. Anyone who knows me
knows that I would play this game I love for nothing.". Which sends all
eyes in the room
rolling at such a speed it looks like all the slots in Tunica being reset
at the same time.

Not that there is anything wrong being all about the money, while claiming
otherwise. Churches and politicians do it all the time. If it is good enough
for God and country, then damn it, it is good enough for musicians. ;)

chuck, in dallas

On May 22, 2012, at 22:23, "***@aol.com" <***@aol.com> wrote:


In no particular order, and keeping in mind that I could find hundreds
of other good examples, here are a couple of handfuls of white singers
that (imo) pulled off the blues vocal thing, convincingly. If there
is one common denominator, at least in the ones where there is video
footage, it is that they all seem to be giving the vocals their best
effort--which also works to separate the really good musicians from
the average, irregardless of color.

-------------


I have watched this thread come around and you are all missing the
point of the conference.


It was saying:


"I'm black and I'm in the blues world and I'm not working as much as I
should be working because white folks are getting hired and that's
wrong because it's MY birthright."


The conference was held in Chicago and - surprise - Mister Guy didn't
drive his Royles Royce from his club to attend.


I appreciate all of you lending opinions about guitar solos and vocal
styles but my late father had the right approach:


"The first time that someone tells you that's it's not about the
money, you know . . . it's about the money."



Dick Waterman
1601 Buchanan Avenue
Oxford, MS 38655

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Jonny Meister
2012-05-23 09:53:46 UTC
Permalink
Perhaps Buddy didn't show up because he was thousands of miles away
at the Doheny Blues Festival....

At 11:23 PM 5/22/2012, Dick Waterman wrote:

>The conference was held in Chicago and - surprise - Mister Guy
>didn't drive his Royles Royce from his club to attend.

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chuck 249
2012-05-23 11:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Uh oh...hope he didn't fall for the Bolivia watch too.
chuck, in dallas

>
> At 11:23 PM 5/22/2012, Dick Waterman wrote:
>
>> The conference was held in Chicago and - surprise - Mister Guy
>> didn't drive his Royles Royce from his club to attend.

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Jonny Meister
2012-05-23 10:47:18 UTC
Permalink
To say that it's about the money is to state the obvious but fail to
go beyond that... WHY is the money going to whom it is going? Why
does there seem to be a preference for white blues players?

The racial subject justifiably continues to rattle the blues world. I
am surprised by how few blacks are on the bill at some pretty
high-profile events. Much of it has to do with who is the audience
and what the audience is looking for. Some of the most incisive
analysis of this is in Adam Gussow's "Journeyman's Road" where he
talks about "half-truths" about blues.

As the expression "half-truths" implies, there are no simple
declarative answers to understanding blues history, though at some
bottom line it is hard to deny that its roots are African-American
and that whites have benefited more financially than blacks. His
discussion of the "white autonomous" blues world, white players and
fans who seem to have completely separated blues music from its
African-American source is particularly eye-opening. It's more than a
little depressing too, for I see blues as one of the main factors in
the civil rights movement. The undeniable appeal of blues to whites
forced at least some whites to question their racial attitudes in life.

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Ricky Stevens
2012-05-23 11:35:11 UTC
Permalink
Johnny Meister wrote:

"Much of it has to do with who is the audience
and what the audience is looking for."

There you have it. Who puts the butts in the seats?


Ricky Stevens

Arkabutla, Mississippi

> Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 06:45:02 -0400
> From: ***@GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'
> To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
>
> To say that it's about the money is to state the obvious but fail to
> go beyond that... WHY is the money going to whom it is going? Why
> does there seem to be a preference for white blues players?
>
> The racial subject justifiably continues to rattle the blues world. I
> am surprised by how few blacks are on the bill at some pretty
> high-profile events. Much of it has to do with who is the audience
> and what the audience is looking for. Some of the most incisive
> analysis of this is in Adam Gussow's "Journeyman's Road" where he
> talks about "half-truths" about blues.
>
> As the expression "half-truths" implies, there are no simple
> declarative answers to understanding blues history, though at some
> bottom line it is hard to deny that its roots are African-American
> and that whites have benefited more financially than blacks. His
> discussion of the "white autonomous" blues world, white players and
> fans who seem to have completely separated blues music from its
> African-American source is particularly eye-opening. It's more than a
> little depressing too, for I see blues as one of the main factors in
> the civil rights movement. The undeniable appeal of blues to whites
> forced at least some whites to question their racial attitudes in life.
>
> ========================================
> Archives & web interface: http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML
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Valerie Johnson
2012-05-23 18:23:24 UTC
Permalink
Johnny Meister wrote:

"Much of it has to do with who is the audience
and what the audience is looking for."

In my local area, San Luis Obispo, California, I am sorry to say that
most of the Blues Festivals promoters forget to have Blues Acts. It
seems the audiences around here think it's cool to go to a "Blues
Festival", but they are not really caring if it has any Blues acts, or
else they don't even realize that Blues is really not represented. The
audience seems to think if it's called a 'Blues Festival'- then the
musicians playing it must be Blues artists. The current example is the
'Avila Beach Blues Festival' going on this weekend, featuring, Doobie
Brothers, Tower Of Power and Taj Mahal. They are all great bands, but
the closest thing to Blues is Taj Mahal. Some of the bands may have a
Blues 'feel', but they are actually Funk, Rock and other genres mixed in.

Thank God for our local Blues Societies (San Luis Blues Society, Santa
Barbara Blues Society, and our new Ventura Blues Society), who truly
are making sure 'real' Blues is served up! These Blues Societies hire
all colors and cultures of folks. As well as, making sure all styles of
Blues are represented throughout each year.

I was talking to my husband, Al B Blue, about this discussion. He is a
black Blues musician. One of his comments was, "There just aren't a
lot of black Blues musicians out there anymore. Especially, not around
here." I am fortunate to do Blues with Al B Blue. I've learned a lot
about the Blues through his own life experiences. Al, is now 72, and as
a teenager he started playing piano and doin' Doo Wop, back in Camden,
NJ. Later on he picked up the guitar and dobro fell in love with the Blues.

To me it is an honor to be able to sing the blues. No, I am not black,
however I know I am so fortunate, and so blessed to be able to have been
allowed this great opportunity to sing this wonderful style of music
that lets me have the freedom to truly express myself. I mean in blues
you don't even have to sing words. It can be a gutteral sound, a
holler, a moan, a repeated word, a dog bark. I'm hearing in my head
recordings I heard of field hollers and chain gangs. Even Mance
Lipscomb, Koko Taylor, John Lee Hooker, Etta James and so many more
expressed true emotions with and without words. It's such an emotional,
soul stirring style of music. I will never stop singing the Blues.
Blues like Gospel sets my soul free and sets my soul on fire!

Now days we have incredible musicians all around the world serving up
Blues in their own way. The Blues is growing and changing with the
times. It started in the fields in a very young United States and has
now touched folks in all the corners of the world. The essence is still
in all of it no matter what race or culture is playing it. By folks
playing the blues - be it as a musician, DJ or family member just
playing it on a record or mp3 it is allowing it to grow and morph with
the times.

My hat is off to each and every Blues lover around the whole big world!
Keep spreadin' those Blues!!

Valerie Johnson & Al B Blue "We're Gonna Blues You Up!"


On 5/23/2012 4:29 AM, Ricky Stevens wrote:the
> Johnny Meister wrote:
>
> "Much of it has to do with who is the audience
> and what the audience is looking for."
>
> There you have it. Who puts the butts in the seats?
>
>
> Ricky Stevens
>
> Arkabutla, Mississippi
>
>> Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 06:45:02 -0400
>> From: ***@GMAIL.COM
>> Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender& the Blues'
>> To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
>>
>> To say that it's about the money is to state the obvious but fail to
>> go beyond that... WHY is the money going to whom it is going? Why
>> does there seem to be a preference for white blues players?
>>
>> The racial subject justifiably continues to rattle the blues world. I
>> am surprised by how few blacks are on the bill at some pretty
>> high-profile events. Much of it has to do with who is the audience
>> and what the audience is looking for. Some of the most incisive
>> analysis of this is in Adam Gussow's "Journeyman's Road" where he
>> talks about "half-truths" about blues.
>>
>> As the expression "half-truths" implies, there are no simple
>> declarative answers to understanding blues history, though at some
>> bottom line it is hard to deny that its roots are African-American
>> and that whites have benefited more financially than blacks. His
>> discussion of the "white autonomous" blues world, white players and
>> fans who seem to have completely separated blues music from its
>> African-American source is particularly eye-opening. It's more than a
>> little depressing too, for I see blues as one of the main factors in
>> the civil rights movement. The undeniable appeal of blues to whites
>> forced at least some whites to question their racial attitudes in life.
>>
>> ========================================
>> Archives& web interface: http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML
>> - To contact the administrator, send an email addressed to: owner-BLUES-***@listserv.nethelps.com
>> - To unsubscribe, send a new email addressed to: ***@listserv.nethelps.com, with the message: unsubscribe BLUES-L
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>
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chuck 249
2012-05-23 12:45:42 UTC
Permalink
I never thought I would see a President write a letter to Living
Blues, or see a blues revue presided over by a sitting US
president....or, for that matter, sing Al Green lyrics. (Sorry my
conservative friends, but McCain singing Bomb Bomb Bomb, Bomb Bomb
Iran does not even come close).

When I hear people who couch their racism with the nuanced, "Take our
country back," my first thought is what unmitigated BS, and then that
things change. At one time is was white America's country (after they
stole it from the Indians that is). That paradigm has changed. We are,
as a nation, stronger and better for it. The same reasoning, to be
fair, has to be employed when it comes to the Blues....and the
argument that someone needs to "give their music back." Hopefully it
(the blues genre) too will be better and stronger for it.

chuck, in dallas

On May 23, 2012, at 5:46, Jonny Meister <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> To say that it's about the money is to state the obvious but fail to
> go beyond that... WHY is the money going to whom it is going? Why
> does there seem to be a preference for white blues players?
>
> The racial subject justifiably continues to rattle the blues world. I
> am surprised by how few blacks are on the bill at some pretty
> high-profile events. Much of it has to do with who is the audience
> and what the audience is looking for. Some of the most incisive
> analysis of this is in Adam Gussow's "Journeyman's Road" where he
> talks about "half-truths" about blues.
>
> As the expression "half-truths" implies, there are no simple
> declarative answers to understanding blues history, though at some
> bottom line it is hard to deny that its roots are African-American
> and that whites have benefited more financially than blacks. His
> discussion of the "white autonomous" blues world, white players and
> fans who seem to have completely separated blues music from its
> African-American source is particularly eye-opening. It's more than a
> little depressing too, for I see blues as one of the main factors in
> the civil rights movement. The undeniable appeal of blues to whites
> forced at least some whites to question their racial attitudes in life.
>
> ========================================
> Archives & web interface: http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML
> - To contact the administrator, send an email addressed to: owner-BLUES-***@listserv.nethelps.com
> - To unsubscribe, send a new email addressed to: ***@listserv.nethelps.com, with the message: unsubscribe BLUES-L
>

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j***@AOL.COM
2012-05-23 16:17:35 UTC
Permalink
At one time is was white America's country (after they
stole it from the Indians that is). That paradigm has changed. We are,
as a nation, stronger and better for it. The same reasoning, to be
fair, has to be employed when it comes to the Blues....and the
argument that someone needs to "give their music back." Hopefully it
(the blues genre) too will be better and stronger for it.


-------------

True words from Texas . . .



Dick Waterman
1601 Buchanan Avenue
Oxford, MS 38655






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Harri Haka
2012-05-23 18:53:12 UTC
Permalink
I agree that all of these are fine examples of white musicians singing
blues and as Chuck said, there are hundreds more. Many of these are
covers performed with good taste. I am not going to send samples and do
not want to make this a black vs white vocalist debate but if we compare
the covers to the originals and look at black singers in general, I
still feel that for example Otis Rush, Magic Sam, Etta James, Koko
Taylor, Muddy Waters, Junior Wells, B.B. King, Buddy Guy are way above
any of said examples. Saddest thing is that there are and were thousands
of black vocalists who never got recognition but who's songs sold
millions when covered by white singers. If you ask even knowledgable
music lovers the question: who recorded the original "When The Levee
Breaks" my guess is that Led Zeppelin would overwhelm Memphis Minnie.

Harri


23.5.2012 4:56, chuck 249 kirjoitti:
> In no particular order, and keeping in mind that I could find hundreds
> of other good examples, here are a couple of handfuls of white singers
> that (imo) pulled off the blues vocal thing, convincingly. If there
> is one common denominator, at least in the ones where there is video
> footage, it is that they all seem to be giving the vocals their best
> effort--which also works to separate the really good musicians from
> the average, irregardless of color.
>

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chuck 249
2012-05-23 21:29:40 UTC
Permalink
Knock knock.
Who's there?
Joe.
Joe who?
Kansas Joe McCoy. Minnie's husband.
Can I help you?
Sure can. Minnie gets all the credit, but since this thread also
mentions gender, I should mention that I had a hand in the creation
and performance of When The Levee Breaks!

chuck, in dallas

On May 23, 2012, at 13:49, Harri Haka <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> I agree that all of these are fine examples of white musicians singing blues and as Chuck said, there are hundreds more. Many of these are covers performed with good taste. I am not going to send samples and do not want to make this a black vs white vocalist debate but if we compare the covers to the originals and look at black singers in general, I still feel that for example Otis Rush, Magic Sam, Etta James, Koko Taylor, Muddy Waters, Junior Wells, B.B. King, Buddy Guy are way above any of said examples. Saddest thing is that there are and were thousands of black vocalists who never got recognition but who's songs sold millions when covered by white singers. If you ask even knowledgable music lovers the question: who recorded the original "When The Levee Breaks" my guess is that Led Zeppelin would overwhelm Memphis Minnie.
>
> Harri
>
>
> 23.5.2012 4:56, chuck 249
>> In no particular order, and keeping in mind that I could find hundreds
>> of other good examples, here are a couple of handfuls of white singers
>> that (imo) pulled off the blues vocal thing, convincingly. If there
>> is one common denominator, at least in the ones where there is video
>> footage, it is that they all seem to be giving the vocals their best
>> effort--which also works to separate the really good musicians from
>> the average, irregardless of color.
>>
>

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Valerie Johnson
2012-05-22 23:07:50 UTC
Permalink
Hello Ton,
My name is Valerie Johnson and I am a Blues singer, singing mainly
traditional to modern blues and also Traditional New Orleans Jazz,
Gospel, R&B & Americana. I was truly blessed to have sang with a The
Bitburg Gospel Messengers, a traditional Gospel Choir. I was the only
white person. Let me tell you, I learned a lot about singing and
different ways to use a voice. I would love for you to take a listen
to my singing as a blues singer and give me your honest opinion.

Al B Blue and I and sometimes Texas Blueswoman Karen Tyler
<http://www.karentyler.com> have also been teaching kids all across the
country, from 2 to 92, about the Blues for over 15 years through our
program Blues for Kids <http://vjblues.com/blues_for_kids>. We serve up
the history of the Blues and provide all kinds of traditional 'Blues'
instruments so we can get the kids playing, singing, Yes, actually
experiencing blues music!

Here are some audio links and more:
Singing with Al B Blue on our CD "What Kind of Blue Is This?" Blues
songs are 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10 http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/valeriejohnson
and various groups doing Blues, Traditional New Orleans Jazz, and
other musical styles. http://vjblues.com <http://vjblues.com/> Go
down the right column to the audio player.

As lead singer of The Strata-Tones on our Debut CD "Dressed Up To Fess
Up" http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/thestratatones

Thank you for your time. Thanks for Keeping the Blues Alive!

Valerie Johnson


On 5/22/2012 3:12 AM, Ton Wanten wrote:
> IMHO Harri is right.
> As a radio "producer", I receive lot's and lot's of music every week.
> Intro's often impress me a lot, great guitar playing or harp playing,
> after the vocals kick inS(. Well, I miss something..
>
> Ton
> Triple R Blues Radio
> The Netherlands
>
> On dinsdag22-05-12 01:48, "Harri Haka"<***@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
>> As a small time European promoter I must say it goes the other way over
>> here. Venues would prefer black musicians but not that many are
>> available. Seems that a lot of gifted young black musicians shy away
> >from the blues and go for hip-hop or rap. On the other hand, many white
>> musicians are obsessed with the blues and practice it day in day out.
>> Luckily, however, we still have rising stars like Omar Coleman and
>> Marquise Knox (to mention a few) who have huge talent. A white musician
>> can learn to play technically flawless blues. But when it comes to
>> vocals, hardly any of them can capture the feeling, guts and credibility
>> of their black colleagues. And in the end, singing is the essence of the
>> blues.
>> Harri from Finland
>>
>> 22.5.2012 0:50, mannish kirjoitti:
>>> a lot of people shay away from the discussion but I like it as long it
>>> does NOT get heated - passionate but no heat
>>> L
>>>
>>> On 5/21/2012 12:06 PM, Jimmy Jacobs wrote:
>>>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/ct-ent-0521-blues-conf
>>>> eren
>>>>
>>>> ce-20120521,0,2623646.column
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's an old argument but still relevant.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ========================================
>>>> Archives& web interface:
>>>> http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML
>>>> - To contact the administrator, send an email addressed to:
>>>> owner-BLUES-***@listserv.nethelps.com
>>>> - To unsubscribe, send a new email addressed to:
>>>> ***@listserv.nethelps.com, with the message: unsubscribe BLUES-L
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 2012.0.2169 / Virus Database: 2425/5013 - Release Date:
>>>> 05/21/12
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ========================================
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MARK SCHOSSOW
2012-05-21 22:47:11 UTC
Permalink
I wonder who complaines about a band with Black and white Bluesfolk kickin high??¿¿.Who wants a grey world? Lets celebrate each culture.And at the same time,when jammin,you won't know it.... if you got it goin.Mainly because each will be wrapped in what they're doing. The Blues,Jazz, and folk music,any good music seems to be one corner of the world where everyone got along.All musicians I know could care less about extremists and any remarks from anyone worried about race.Personalities clash for certain.
Get out so we may jam!!!!!! Its a relivent subject,......to the Chicago Tribune.Shame on THEM.When most of their print is cut and dried...... and
Do not let the work of the fifties, sixties and 70's be in vain.
The Blues list is a microcosm of proof positive.
Prison is the one place it is veery relivent.
Who the &$#@#%-+-$ wants to ......even a PRISON Blues band would not care about this! subject. Well,not gendor.Ill give that much,in prison Blues bands ………… maybe.
Mark Schossow.
If you paid ur dues,
then you know
The Blues.

-----Original Message-----

From: mannish
Sent: 21 May 2012 22:00:58 GMT
To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'

a lot of people shay away from the discussion but I like it as long it
does NOT get heated - passionate but no heat
L

On 5/21/2012 12:06 PM, Jimmy Jacobs wrote:
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/ct-ent-0521-blues-conferen
> ce-20120521,0,2623646.column
>
>
>
> It's an old argument but still relevant.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ========================================
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> - To contact the administrator, send an email addressed to: owner-BLUES-***@listserv.nethelps.com
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>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2169 / Virus Database: 2425/5013 - Release Date: 05/21/12
>
>

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MARK SCHOSSOW
2012-05-22 18:25:54 UTC
Permalink
I guess this mite be a question fer foreigners,It is quite interesting to see how Bluesfolk accross the oceans percieve a U.S. treasure that is homegrown.I would like to let them know that if names were left out on a package of Blues..To say us "caucasions" may be technicality correct but may not have soul¿.Live music is the only way they would know for sure.That mite even be hard to discern. Would a person was ....say 25% african descendacy 75% caucasion only have eh.....so much soul,good enough for a biker bar jam for hat money?Would a white man on bass,another on drums,totally screw up the rest of the band that is of African decent?
Obviously, we need to put better information on the internet and thru our media.I see these Europeans as making honest opinions.This is the same as saying "Blacks have rhythm, they were bread for slavory,thats why there are better atheletes".By saying any race is natural at anything. By saying whites are not as good at Blues,your saying blacks are natural at it.Whether its a complimentary referal,or not,its raciest.Here in the U.S. anyway.Ask sharecroppers,victems of the dustbowl,or poverty ridden whites.Racism is an animal that hurts people of all colors,creeds or genders.
Our news used to try and be stating all the facts and let readers and watchers decide.
Another gem.People of color,have outnumbered caucasions since before 2000.Will someone else deal with gender?And if any one man says he knows the answer to that is lying. All U.S. males fear them from 3rd grade on because they ARE different. We....we ,we love them also and if intelligent,respect them.From the 3rd grade on.If you really wanna understand, read Samual Clemons "Huckleberry Finn".Race and gender are explained by that wonderful writer.In a entertaining way
Not like this writer.I been dancin on nails without shoes here.
Mark Schossow.

If you dun paid ur dues,
then you know the Blues.

-----Original Message-----

From: Ton Wanten
Sent: 22 May 2012 10:19:31 GMT
To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'

IMHO Harri is right.
As a radio "producer", I receive lot's and lot's of music every week.
Intro's often impress me a lot, great guitar playing or harp playing,
after the vocals kick inŠ. Well, I miss something..

Ton
Triple R Blues Radio
The Netherlands

On dinsdag22-05-12 01:48, "Harri Haka" <***@GMAIL.COM> wrote:

>As a small time European promoter I must say it goes the other way over
>here. Venues would prefer black musicians but not that many are
>available. Seems that a lot of gifted young black musicians shy away
>from the blues and go for hip-hop or rap. On the other hand, many white
>musicians are obsessed with the blues and practice it day in day out.
>Luckily, however, we still have rising stars like Omar Coleman and
>Marquise Knox (to mention a few) who have huge talent. A white musician
>can learn to play technically flawless blues. But when it comes to
>vocals, hardly any of them can capture the feeling, guts and credibility
>of their black colleagues. And in the end, singing is the essence of the
>blues.
>Harri from Finland
>
> 22.5.2012 0:50, mannish kirjoitti:
>> a lot of people shay away from the discussion but I like it as long it
>> does NOT get heated - passionate but no heat
>> L
>>
>> On 5/21/2012 12:06 PM, Jimmy Jacobs wrote:
>>>
>>>http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/ct-ent-0521-blues-conf
>>>eren
>>>
>>> ce-20120521,0,2623646.column
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's an old argument but still relevant.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> 05/21/12
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Valerie Johnson
2012-05-22 23:34:56 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ton,
You were not insulting. You are being honest. I just asked you to
listen to my singing, because I think I do have that soulful, emotional
honest full sound of a female (black) blues singer. I have a low,
contralto voice and so it has a lot of fullness. When people have heard
me sing on CD, but have never seen me - they have a hard time believing
I am a white girl. They think I am black. I am not trying to copy how
black women sing. It is just the way I sing.
Thank you so much for your time.

Sincerely,
Valerie Johnson

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beardo1
2012-05-27 10:20:49 UTC
Permalink
Just sayin' ......


My initial exposure to "blues" music was via The British Invasion when I was a kid. I can say with confidence that all my friends had their heads whirled around when they heard "Crossroads" for the first time. Yes, of course it was The Cream.

Does that start make me a fake blues fan? Tip of the hat to the promoters who influenced a slew of Brits by exposing them to black american artists in the early 60's, thus creating a new blues audience that became musicians. The American Folk Blues Festival by German promoters Horst Lippmann and Fritz Rau were the catalyst.

I could go on a LONG rant here.... but let me ask...What would have happened to this genre if it hadn't been shipped back to these shores as something many kids here were never exposed to before?

It changed me forever.


Beardo
Co-Host of Bandana Blues
Senior Contributing Editor BluesWax

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Roger Wilson
2012-05-27 13:40:43 UTC
Permalink
I always liked Gatemouth Brown's view on the subject. He hated the "B" word
and referred to it as Music.

Roger

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j***@AOL.COM
2012-05-27 15:43:32 UTC
Permalink
Does that start make me a fake blues fan? Tip of the hat to the promoters who
influenced a slew of Brits by exposing them to black american artists in the
early 60's, thus creating a new blues audience that became musicians. The
American Folk Blues Festival by German promoters Horst Lippmann and Fritz Rau
were the catalyst.

---------------

Lippmann and Rau got their long overdue induction into the Blues Foundation's Hall of Fame last month in Memphis.

It's not just that they brought over real blue, they insisted on top of the line players.

I remember one tour (maybe 1967) with Son House, Skip James, Booker White, Hound Dog Taylor, Brownie & Sonny, Sippie Wallace, etc.

And the rhythm sections were great with Willie Dixon on bass, Fred Below on drums, Otis Spann or Roosevelt Sykes or Lafayette Leake on piano.



Dick Waterman
1601 Buchanan Avenue
Oxford, MS 38655


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Jimmy Jacobs
2012-05-27 20:52:00 UTC
Permalink
I have really enjoyed having the opportunity to see those players in the
dvd's of those festival programs. The name of the series reminds me of the
importance of folk music's influence in bringing awareness of
African-American blues music to the white population. I recall buying
albums by Dylan, Baez, Lightin' Hopkins and Muddy Waters' "Folk Singer"
while I was in high school. I was familiar with many of the 50's and 60's
blues performers from WLAC radio, but recall my knowledge of Son House,
Mississippi John Hurt and Bukka White came from folkers. Later, when the
Stones and others became popular, I knew where their influences (and covers)
came from, but most of my white contemporaries did learn about blues from
the British artists.

There have been a lot of interesting comments in the responses to this
thread. Given me a lot to think about.

-----Original Message-----
From: Blues Music List [mailto:BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM] On Behalf Of
***@AOL.COM
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2012 10:37 AM
To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'




Does that start make me a fake blues fan? Tip of the hat to the promoters
who influenced a slew of Brits by exposing them to black american artists in
the early 60's, thus creating a new blues audience that became musicians.
The American Folk Blues Festival by German promoters Horst Lippmann and
Fritz Rau were the catalyst.

---------------

Lippmann and Rau got their long overdue induction into the Blues
Foundation's Hall of Fame last month in Memphis.

It's not just that they brought over real blue, they insisted on top of the
line players.

I remember one tour (maybe 1967) with Son House, Skip James, Booker White,
Hound Dog Taylor, Brownie & Sonny, Sippie Wallace, etc.

And the rhythm sections were great with Willie Dixon on bass, Fred Below on
drums, Otis Spann or Roosevelt Sykes or Lafayette Leake on piano.



Dick Waterman
1601 Buchanan Avenue
Oxford, MS 38655


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Pam
2012-05-28 23:06:35 UTC
Permalink
I am very lucky to have gone around twice. In my formative years, I was
fortunate to be in an area able to get the signal from WHAT-FM a jazz
station with very strong folk music programing thanks to Gene Shay, who
still is on the air and puts on the Philadelphia folk festival every
year. The blues musicians were part of his programing, include Son
House, Leadbelly, etc., etc. I used to tape the programs and somewhere
I have a tape with Leadbelly playing the Eagle Rock on piano. There
were several very very active coffee houses in the area, too, and I
lived in the Village for a while, so I got to see so many of the
"classic" blues artists in cozy settings.

I was turned off by the Brits and their covers because I was a "purist"
and wanted things done in the original way. Dave Van Ronk, Eric von
Schmidt and Tom Rush were the ones whose covers led me to the originals.

NBC: If there are old folkies like me out there, Doc Watson is in ICU
in Winston-Salem right now and the family has been called to be with
him. He is 89 and certainly has lived a full life, but I hope he will
be with us a little longer.

Jimmy Jacobs wrote:

>I have really enjoyed having the opportunity to see those players in the
>dvd's of those festival programs. The name of the series reminds me of the
>importance of folk music's influence in bringing awareness of
>African-American blues music to the white population. I recall buying
>albums by Dylan, Baez, Lightin' Hopkins and Muddy Waters' "Folk Singer"
>while I was in high school. I was familiar with many of the 50's and 60's
>blues performers from WLAC radio, but recall my knowledge of Son House,
>Mississippi John Hurt and Bukka White came from folkers. Later, when the
>Stones and others became popular, I knew where their influences (and covers)
>came from, but most of my white contemporaries did learn about blues from
>the British artists.
>
> There have been a lot of interesting comments in the responses to this
>thread. Given me a lot to think about.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Blues Music List [mailto:BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM] On Behalf Of
>***@AOL.COM
>Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2012 10:37 AM
>To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
>Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'
>
>
>
>
>Does that start make me a fake blues fan? Tip of the hat to the promoters
>who influenced a slew of Brits by exposing them to black american artists in
>the early 60's, thus creating a new blues audience that became musicians.
>The American Folk Blues Festival by German promoters Horst Lippmann and
>Fritz Rau were the catalyst.
>
> ---------------
>
>Lippmann and Rau got their long overdue induction into the Blues
>Foundation's Hall of Fame last month in Memphis.
>
>It's not just that they brought over real blue, they insisted on top of the
>line players.
>
>I remember one tour (maybe 1967) with Son House, Skip James, Booker White,
>Hound Dog Taylor, Brownie & Sonny, Sippie Wallace, etc.
>
>And the rhythm sections were great with Willie Dixon on bass, Fred Below on
>drums, Otis Spann or Roosevelt Sykes or Lafayette Leake on piano.
>
>
>
>Dick Waterman
>1601 Buchanan Avenue
>Oxford, MS 38655
>
>
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Robert Putignano
2012-05-29 01:31:31 UTC
Permalink
... And lets not forget about Ray Charles' Country contributions.
Bob

On Mon, 28 May 2012 19:35:26 -0400, ***@AOL.COM wrote:

>
>
>
>Not wanting to take part in the c&w discussion more than to say that
>there was never a general interest in country music within the black
>community.
>------------
>
>This is absolutely not true.
>
>Blues people growing up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s all listened to
WLAC (Nashville) with its powerful signal.
>
>B.B.King told me in great detail how he had listen to Gene Autry and Red
Foley and Jimmy Rogers.
>
>Mississippi John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt with me" is unmistakably
Jimmy Rogers'"All Around the Water Tank" a/k/a "Waiting for a Train."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Dick Waterman
>1601 Buchanan Avenue
>Oxford, MS 38655
>
>
>
>
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And lets not forget about Ray Charles' Country contributions.
Bob

This is absolutely not true.

Blues people growing up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s all listened to
WLAC (Nashville) with its powerful signal.

B.B.King told me in great detail how he had listen to Gene Autry and Red
Foley and Jimmy Rogers.

Mississippi John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt with me" is unmistakably
Jimmy Rogers'"All Around the Water Tank" a/k/a "Waiting for a Train."

Dick Waterman 1601 Buchanan Avenue Oxford, MS 38655

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Louis Erlanger
2012-05-29 05:57:01 UTC
Permalink
Big Jack Johnson played w Conway Twitty, as did Sam Carr. Johnny Copeland liked Hank Williams. Lightning Hopkins &John Lee Hooker recorded country tunes. And what about Ray Charles?

Ricky Stevens <***@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

>My personal experince disagrees with what Hari writes below.
>
>When I was growing up in the Delta most of the older people, black and white, listened to and appreciated musicians like Bill Monroe, Roy Acuff, The Carter Family, and Hank Williams. I've had many discussions with black people from the Delta, both musicians and non-musicians, who told me about listening to Nashville's WSM Clear Channel 650, home of the Grand Ole Opry. I remember one older black woman whose personal favorite was Little Jimmy Dickens.
>
>My wfe's grandfather was a guitar player. He claimed that his group and WC Handy's group would alternate weekends at some of the local dances in Tunica and Coahoma counties. He said they played pretty much the same set lists, a mix of whatever was popular on the radio at the time whether big band, blues, or "hillbilly" music as the term country was not then in use. These gigs included split stage performances with whites dancing on one side of the stage and blacks on the other.
>
>In short, the statement that there was no general interest in country music among the black audience just isn't true, at least not in my part of the Mississippi Delta.
>
>Ricky Stevens
>
>Arkabutla, Mississippi
>
>> Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 03:34:50 +0300
>> From: ***@GMAIL.COM
>> Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'
>> To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
>>
>> Like I was saying, there was not a general interest for country music
>> among the wider black audience. It is of course natural for a talent
>> like B.B. King to have studied all genres including country and jazz.
>> But does any of this reflect on his actual playing or singing? He has
>> flirted with U2, Eric Clapton and others in the past years but I hardly
>> find a c&w influence on any of his recordings. Mississippi John Hurt is
>> greatly respected but he was a folk singer and story teller with a
>> natural connection to country music of his time.
>> Harri
>>
>>
>> 29.5.2012 2:35, ***@aol.com kirjoitti:
>> >
>> > Not wanting to take part in the c&w discussion more than to say that
>> > there was never a general interest in country music within the black
>> > community.
>> >
>> > ------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > This is absolutely not true.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Blues people growing up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s all listened to WLAC (Nashville) with its powerful signal.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > B.B.King told me in great detail how he had listen to Gene Autry and Red Foley and Jimmy Rogers.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Mississippi John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt with me" is unmistakably Jimmy Rogers'"All Around the Water Tank" a/k/a "Waiting for a Train."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Dick Waterman
>> > 1601 Buchanan Avenue
>> > Oxford, MS 38655
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Jonny Meister
2012-05-29 11:13:51 UTC
Permalink
I remember Lonnie Brooks telling me once that he loved country
western music when he was growing up. The great thing about music is
that it simply refuses to observe boundaries. Music irreverently
crossed racial boundaries in the US, and refused to take sides in
the struggle between Ireland and England. It fails to honor the
divide(s) in the Middle East. I think it has had an important role
in promoting better relations between races, ethnic groups, etc...
though obviously we have a long way to go. Perhaps that's why the
Taliban rejects music altogether, though it is surely an
irrepressible part of human experience, and it cannot be banished
from human life. The role of music in crossing boundaries is perhaps
best represented by the blues...

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chuck 249
2012-05-29 11:33:31 UTC
Permalink
That should be no surprise, none at all....cause hell, he was Born To
Sing The Blues! Seriously, that isn't my opinion....what it is, is
the name of one side of this 45rpm he cut back in '57.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwxclk7S4OQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

When you think back to all of the blues songs that were done back in
the 30s and 40s, and cats like Conway, and the blues tinged nature of
all the great rockabilly stuff (sorry, all of you British invasion
theory proponents...), one could make the argument that....drum roll
please.... the blues were not the music of one race, but rather a
condition of the human race.

Anyone who does not buy into that argument, well, they just are not
listening to the stacks of evidence oozing out of the wax grooves.

chuck, in dallas

On May 29, 2012, at 0:56, Louis Erlanger <***@myfairpoint.net> wrote:

> Big Jack Johnson played w Conway Twitty, as did Sam Carr. Johnny Copeland liked Hank Williams. Lightning Hopkins &John Lee Hooker recorded country tunes. And what about Ray Charles?
>
> Ricky Stevens <***@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
>> My personal experince disagrees with what Hari writes below.
>>
>> When I was growing up in the Delta most of the older people, black and white, listened to and appreciated musicians like Bill Monroe, Roy Acuff, The Carter Family, and Hank Williams. I've had many discussions with black people from the Delta, both musicians and non-musicians, who told me about listening to Nashville's WSM Clear Channel 650, home of the Grand Ole Opry. I remember one older black woman whose personal favorite was Little Jimmy Dickens.
>>
>> My wfe's grandfather was a guitar player. He claimed that his group and WC Handy's group would alternate weekends at some of the local dances in Tunica and Coahoma counties. He said they played pretty much the same set lists, a mix of whatever was popular on the radio at the time whether big band, blues, or "hillbilly" music as the term country was not then in use. These gigs included split stage performances with whites dancing on one side of the stage and blacks on the other.
>>
>> In short, the statement that there was no general interest in country music among the black audience just isn't true, at least not in my part of the Mississippi Delta.
>>
>> Ricky Stevens
>>
>> Arkabutla, Mississippi
>>
>>> Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 03:34:50 +0300
>>> From: ***@GMAIL.COM
>>> Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'
>>> To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
>>>
>>> Like I was saying, there was not a general interest for country music
>>> among the wider black audience. It is of course natural for a talent
>>> like B.B. King to have studied all genres including country and jazz.
>>> But does any of this reflect on his actual playing or singing? He has
>>> flirted with U2, Eric Clapton and others in the past years but I hardly
>>> find a c&w influence on any of his recordings. Mississippi John Hurt is
>>> greatly respected but he was a folk singer and story teller with a
>>> natural connection to country music of his time.
>>> Harri
>>>
>>>
>>> 29.5.2012 2:35, ***@aol.com kirjoitti:
>>>>
>>>> Not wanting to take part in the c&w discussion more than to say that
>>>> there was never a general interest in country music within the black
>>>> community.
>>>>
>>>> ------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is absolutely not true.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Blues people growing up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s all listened to WLAC (Nashville) with its powerful signal.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> B.B.King told me in great detail how he had listen to Gene Autry and Red Foley and Jimmy Rogers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mississippi John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt with me" is unmistakably Jimmy Rogers'"All Around the Water Tank" a/k/a "Waiting for a Train."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dick Waterman
>>>> 1601 Buchanan Avenue
>>>> Oxford, MS 38655
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ========================================
>>> Archives & web interface: http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML
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>>
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>>

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Harri Haka
2012-05-29 21:25:14 UTC
Permalink
I had the priviilige of meeting Willie "Big Eyes" Smith two months
before he died. We talked about white singers with a black voice e.g.
Tom Jones. And Charley Pride and Ray Charles doing c&w. I doubt that
blues musicians were actually influenced by c&w and all of us can hear
this on recordings and live shows. To be a smart ass, one might say that
every musician is influenced by Beethoven. But Chuck Berry gave his
answer to that question.
Harri


29.5.2012 6:09, Tom Hyslop kirjoitti:
> Harri,
>
> Respectfully submitted, your position as stated is simply incorrect.
>
> Every bluesman of a certain age that I have interviewed - including
> Magic Slim, Phillip Walker, Big Jack Johnson, John Primer, and many
> others - professed a deep and abiding love for country music. Whether
> it was an innate feeling for the style or the fact that it was all
> they heard on the radio, as has been mentioned, does not much matter.
> Howlin' Wolf cited the yodeling of The Singing Brakeman, Jimmie
> Rodgers, as the inspiration for his own vocalizations. Mel Brown
> toured with Tompall Glaser, just as he did with Bobby Bland; Glaser is
> a country artist. You can look it up. Or you can continue to believe
> what you want, rather than to face facts.
>
> Best regards,
>
> tom
>
> At 3:34 AM +0300 5/29/12, Harri Haka wrote:
>> Like I was saying, there was not a general interest for country music
>> among the wider black audience. It is of course natural for a talent
>> like B.B. King to have studied all genres including country and jazz.
>> But does any of this reflect on his actual playing or singing? He has
>> flirted with U2, Eric Clapton and others in the past years but I hardly
>> find a c&w influence on any of his recordings. Mississippi John Hurt is
>> greatly respected but he was a folk singer and story teller with a
>> natural connection to country music of his time.
>> Harri
>>
>>
>> 29.5.2012 2:35, ***@aol.com kirjoitti:
>>>
>>> Not wanting to take part in the c&w discussion more than to say
>>> that
>>> there was never a general interest in country music within the
>>> black
>>> community.
>>>
>>> ------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is absolutely not true.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Blues people growing up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s all
>>> listened to WLAC (Nashville) with its powerful signal.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> B.B.King told me in great detail how he had listen to Gene Autry
>>> and Red Foley and Jimmy Rogers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mississippi John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt with me" is
>>> unmistakably Jimmy Rogers'"All Around the Water Tank" a/k/a "Waiting
>>> for a Train."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dick Waterman
>>> 1601 Buchanan Avenue
>>> Oxford, MS 38655
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ========================================
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>> http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML
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j***@AOL.COM
2012-05-29 21:39:10 UTC
Permalink
I doubt that
blues musicians were actually influenced by c&w and all of us can hear
this on recordings and live shows.
-------------------

I think this thread has gone on long enough . . .

My final thought is that Howling Wolf said that his 'howl' was his version of Jimmy Rogers' yodel . . .




Dick Waterman
1601 Buchanan Avenue
Oxford, MS 38655




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Ricky Stevens
2012-05-29 21:55:10 UTC
Permalink
Tom,

Please don't make the mistake of trying to insert pesky things like facts and reality into this thread. That approach obviously doesn't work.

Ricky Stevens

Arkabutla, Mississippi

> Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 00:23:05 +0300
> From: ***@GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Fwd: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'
> To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
>
> I had the priviilige of meeting Willie "Big Eyes" Smith two months
> before he died. We talked about white singers with a black voice e.g.
> Tom Jones. And Charley Pride and Ray Charles doing c&w. I doubt that
> blues musicians were actually influenced by c&w and all of us can hear
> this on recordings and live shows. To be a smart ass, one might say that
> every musician is influenced by Beethoven. But Chuck Berry gave his
> answer to that question.
> Harri
>
>
> 29.5.2012 6:09, Tom Hyslop kirjoitti:
> > Harri,
> >
> > Respectfully submitted, your position as stated is simply incorrect.
> >
> > Every bluesman of a certain age that I have interviewed - including
> > Magic Slim, Phillip Walker, Big Jack Johnson, John Primer, and many
> > others - professed a deep and abiding love for country music. Whether
> > it was an innate feeling for the style or the fact that it was all
> > they heard on the radio, as has been mentioned, does not much matter.
> > Howlin' Wolf cited the yodeling of The Singing Brakeman, Jimmie
> > Rodgers, as the inspiration for his own vocalizations. Mel Brown
> > toured with Tompall Glaser, just as he did with Bobby Bland; Glaser is
> > a country artist. You can look it up. Or you can continue to believe
> > what you want, rather than to face facts.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > tom
> >
> > At 3:34 AM +0300 5/29/12, Harri Haka wrote:
> >> Like I was saying, there was not a general interest for country music
> >> among the wider black audience. It is of course natural for a talent
> >> like B.B. King to have studied all genres including country and jazz.
> >> But does any of this reflect on his actual playing or singing? He has
> >> flirted with U2, Eric Clapton and others in the past years but I hardly
> >> find a c&w influence on any of his recordings. Mississippi John Hurt is
> >> greatly respected but he was a folk singer and story teller with a
> >> natural connection to country music of his time.
> >> Harri
> >>
> >>
> >> 29.5.2012 2:35, ***@aol.com kirjoitti:
> >>>
> >>> Not wanting to take part in the c&w discussion more than to say
> >>> that
> >>> there was never a general interest in country music within the
> >>> black
> >>> community.
> >>>
> >>> ------------
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> This is absolutely not true.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Blues people growing up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s all
> >>> listened to WLAC (Nashville) with its powerful signal.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> B.B.King told me in great detail how he had listen to Gene Autry
> >>> and Red Foley and Jimmy Rogers.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Mississippi John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt with me" is
> >>> unmistakably Jimmy Rogers'"All Around the Water Tank" a/k/a "Waiting
> >>> for a Train."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Dick Waterman
> >>> 1601 Buchanan Avenue
> >>> Oxford, MS 38655
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ========================================
> >> Archives & web interface:
> >> http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML
> >> - To contact the administrator, send an email addressed to:
> >> owner-BLUES-***@listserv.nethelps.com
> >> - To unsubscribe, send a new email addressed to:
> >> ***@listserv.nethelps.com, with the message: unsubscribe BLUES-L
> >
>
>
>
>
> ========================================
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Stan Erhart
2012-05-29 22:07:38 UTC
Permalink
Everyone IS influenced by everyone else, whether they realize it or not. I take Chuck Berry's line as a nod to both Beethoven and Tchaikovsky. They were asked to share the news about rock and roll.

Steve Martin has a banjo documentary that talks about how some of the soup was mixed thru jug bands, minstrel bands, blue grass bands, and so on. As usual, not always black, not always white.

http://www.thebanjoproject.org/
-----Original Message-----
From: Ricky Stevens <***@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender: Blues Music List <BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM>
Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 16:37:28
To: <BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM>
Reply-To: Ricky Stevens <***@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'

Tom,

Please don't make the mistake of trying to insert pesky things like facts and reality into this thread. That approach obviously doesn't work.

Ricky Stevens

Arkabutla, Mississippi

> Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 00:23:05 +0300
> From: ***@GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Fwd: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'
> To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
>
> I had the priviilige of meeting Willie "Big Eyes" Smith two months
> before he died. We talked about white singers with a black voice e.g.
> Tom Jones. And Charley Pride and Ray Charles doing c&w. I doubt that
> blues musicians were actually influenced by c&w and all of us can hear
> this on recordings and live shows. To be a smart ass, one might say that
> every musician is influenced by Beethoven. But Chuck Berry gave his
> answer to that question.
> Harri
>
>
> 29.5.2012 6:09, Tom Hyslop kirjoitti:
> > Harri,
> >
> > Respectfully submitted, your position as stated is simply incorrect.
> >
> > Every bluesman of a certain age that I have interviewed - including
> > Magic Slim, Phillip Walker, Big Jack Johnson, John Primer, and many
> > others - professed a deep and abiding love for country music. Whether
> > it was an innate feeling for the style or the fact that it was all
> > they heard on the radio, as has been mentioned, does not much matter.
> > Howlin' Wolf cited the yodeling of The Singing Brakeman, Jimmie
> > Rodgers, as the inspiration for his own vocalizations. Mel Brown
> > toured with Tompall Glaser, just as he did with Bobby Bland; Glaser is
> > a country artist. You can look it up. Or you can continue to believe
> > what you want, rather than to face facts.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > tom
> >
> > At 3:34 AM +0300 5/29/12, Harri Haka wrote:
> >> Like I was saying, there was not a general interest for country music
> >> among the wider black audience. It is of course natural for a talent
> >> like B.B. King to have studied all genres including country and jazz.
> >> But does any of this reflect on his actual playing or singing? He has
> >> flirted with U2, Eric Clapton and others in the past years but I hardly
> >> find a c&w influence on any of his recordings. Mississippi John Hurt is
> >> greatly respected but he was a folk singer and story teller with a
> >> natural connection to country music of his time.
> >> Harri
> >>
> >>
> >> 29.5.2012 2:35, ***@aol.com kirjoitti:
> >>>
> >>> Not wanting to take part in the c&w discussion more than to say
> >>> that
> >>> there was never a general interest in country music within the
> >>> black
> >>> community.
> >>>
> >>> ------------
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> This is absolutely not true.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Blues people growing up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s all
> >>> listened to WLAC (Nashville) with its powerful signal.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> B.B.King told me in great detail how he had listen to Gene Autry
> >>> and Red Foley and Jimmy Rogers.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Mississippi John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt with me" is
> >>> unmistakably Jimmy Rogers'"All Around the Water Tank" a/k/a "Waiting
> >>> for a Train."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Dick Waterman
> >>> 1601 Buchanan Avenue
> >>> Oxford, MS 38655
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ========================================
> >> Archives & web interface:
> >> http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML
> >> - To contact the administrator, send an email addressed to:
> >> owner-BLUES-***@listserv.nethelps.com
> >> - To unsubscribe, send a new email addressed to:
> >> ***@listserv.nethelps.com, with the message: unsubscribe BLUES-L
> >
>
>
>
>
> ========================================
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Pam
2012-05-29 23:37:00 UTC
Permalink
To employ a little logic here - then go back to lurking.
Leadbelly is certainly regarded as one of the old school bluesmen.
Leadbelly wrote, recorded and had a gagillion people cover "Goodnight
Irene" - and it certainly does not conform with the "blues" style of the
day. Written in three quarter time, it much more reflects the style and
lyrics of country music of the era (minus the yodeling) than a blues song.

Crawling back into my shell now. My apologies in advance for spewing
logic herein.

Stan Erhart wrote:

>Everyone IS influenced by everyone else, whether they realize it or not. I take Chuck Berry's line as a nod to both Beethoven and Tchaikovsky. They were asked to share the news about rock and roll.
>
>Steve Martin has a banjo documentary that talks about how some of the soup was mixed thru jug bands, minstrel bands, blue grass bands, and so on. As usual, not always black, not always white.
>
>http://www.thebanjoproject.org/
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ricky Stevens <***@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Sender: Blues Music List <BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM>
>Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 16:37:28
>To: <BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM>
>Reply-To: Ricky Stevens <***@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'
>
>Tom,
>
>Please don't make the mistake of trying to insert pesky things like facts and reality into this thread. That approach obviously doesn't work.
>
>Ricky Stevens
>
>Arkabutla, Mississippi
>
>
>
>>Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 00:23:05 +0300
>>From: ***@GMAIL.COM
>>Subject: Fwd: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'
>>To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
>>
>>I had the priviilige of meeting Willie "Big Eyes" Smith two months
>>before he died. We talked about white singers with a black voice e.g.
>>Tom Jones. And Charley Pride and Ray Charles doing c&w. I doubt that
>>blues musicians were actually influenced by c&w and all of us can hear
>>this on recordings and live shows. To be a smart ass, one might say that
>>every musician is influenced by Beethoven. But Chuck Berry gave his
>>answer to that question.
>>Harri
>>
>>
>>29.5.2012 6:09, Tom Hyslop kirjoitti:
>>
>>
>>>Harri,
>>>
>>> Respectfully submitted, your position as stated is simply incorrect.
>>>
>>> Every bluesman of a certain age that I have interviewed - including
>>>Magic Slim, Phillip Walker, Big Jack Johnson, John Primer, and many
>>>others - professed a deep and abiding love for country music. Whether
>>>it was an innate feeling for the style or the fact that it was all
>>>they heard on the radio, as has been mentioned, does not much matter.
>>>Howlin' Wolf cited the yodeling of The Singing Brakeman, Jimmie
>>>Rodgers, as the inspiration for his own vocalizations. Mel Brown
>>>toured with Tompall Glaser, just as he did with Bobby Bland; Glaser is
>>>a country artist. You can look it up. Or you can continue to believe
>>>what you want, rather than to face facts.
>>>
>>>Best regards,
>>>
>>>tom
>>>
>>>At 3:34 AM +0300 5/29/12, Harri Haka wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Like I was saying, there was not a general interest for country music
>>>>among the wider black audience. It is of course natural for a talent
>>>>like B.B. King to have studied all genres including country and jazz.
>>>>But does any of this reflect on his actual playing or singing? He has
>>>>flirted with U2, Eric Clapton and others in the past years but I hardly
>>>>find a c&w influence on any of his recordings. Mississippi John Hurt is
>>>>greatly respected but he was a folk singer and story teller with a
>>>>natural connection to country music of his time.
>>>>Harri
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>29.5.2012 2:35, ***@aol.com kirjoitti:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Not wanting to take part in the c&w discussion more than to say
>>>>>that
>>>>> there was never a general interest in country music within the
>>>>>black
>>>>> community.
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is absolutely not true.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Blues people growing up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s all
>>>>>listened to WLAC (Nashville) with its powerful signal.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> B.B.King told me in great detail how he had listen to Gene Autry
>>>>>and Red Foley and Jimmy Rogers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mississippi John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt with me" is
>>>>>unmistakably Jimmy Rogers'"All Around the Water Tank" a/k/a "Waiting
>>>>>for a Train."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Dick Waterman
>>>>>1601 Buchanan Avenue
>>>>>Oxford, MS 38655
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>========================================
>>>>Archives & web interface:
>>>>http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML
>>>>- To contact the administrator, send an email addressed to:
>>>>owner-BLUES-***@listserv.nethelps.com
>>>>- To unsubscribe, send a new email addressed to:
>>>>***@listserv.nethelps.com, with the message: unsubscribe BLUES-L
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>========================================
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>>
>>
>>
>
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>
>


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Ricky Stevens
2012-05-30 02:06:53 UTC
Permalink
Here's a sample from the most popular country singer of the pre-war era. His music was played on most radio stations in the south. His records were sold in large numbers in the same area.
Of course, I don't hear any of this influence in any blues record ever made.

http://youtu.be/qEIBmGZxAhg

Ricky Stevens

Arkabutla, Mississippi



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Harri Haka
2012-05-30 13:59:10 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, this is blues in the Mississippi John Hurt genre. In the end, is
it even necessary to categorise music? Listen to what you enjoy. Period.
Harri


30.5.2012 5:03, Ricky Stevens kirjoitti:
> Here's a sample from the most popular country singer of the pre-war era. His music was played on most radio stations in the south. His records were sold in large numbers in the same area.
> Of course, I don't hear any of this influence in any blues record ever made.
>
> http://youtu.be/qEIBmGZxAhg
>
> Ricky Stevens
>
> Arkabutla, Mississippi
>
>
>
> ========================================
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Ricky Stevens
2012-05-30 14:00:14 UTC
Permalink
Forgive my ignorance of life in the Delta. Of course you're right.
It is painfully obvious I don't have your experience or depth of knowledge.
There's no way any black person in Mississippi ever listened to anything resembling country music.

http://youtu.be/96NwV6g-3PE

Ricky Stevens

Arkabutla, Mississippi

> Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 16:46:18 +0300
> From: ***@gmail.com
> To: ***@HOTMAIL.COM
> CC: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
> Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'
>
> Yeah, this is blues in the Mississippi John Hurt genre. In the end, is
> it even necessary to categorise music? Listen to what you enjoy. Period.
> Harri
>
>

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chuck 249
2012-05-30 14:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Now be nice...for what was labeled as a "heated discussion" I think
this discussion has been not only informative, but also civil. Let's
keep it that way, and who knows, maybe we can whittle away at the
reputation this group has
as being contentious.

Besides, before long Facebook is going to go into advertising
overdrive in an effort
to rescue their plummeting stock....and then possibly zellers will
return to the listserv format, which I have always supported and
stayed with, simply because things get archived.

On May 30, 2012, at 8:59, Ricky Stevens <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Forgive my ignorance of life in the Delta. Of course you're right.
> It is painfully obvious I don't have your experience or depth of knowledge.
> There's no way any black person in Mississippi ever listened to anything resembling country music.
>
> http://youtu.be/96NwV6g-3PE
>
> Ricky Stevens
>
> Arkabutla, Mississippi
>
>> Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 16:46:18 +0300
>> From: ***@gmail.com
>> To: ***@HOTMAIL.COM
>> CC: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
>> Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'
>>
>> Yeah, this is blues in the Mississippi John Hurt genre. In the end, is
>> it even necessary to categorise music? Listen to what you enjoy. Period.
>> Harri
>>
>>
>
> ========================================
> Archives & web interface: http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML
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Steve Ahola
2012-05-30 19:51:06 UTC
Permalink
On 5/30/2012 7:23 AM, chuck 249 wrote:
> Besides, before long Facebook is going to go into advertising
> overdrive in an effort
> to rescue their plummeting stock....and then possibly zellers will
> return to the listserv format, which I have always supported and
> stayed with, simply because things get archived.
>
>
You hit the nail on the head! Facebook has pretty much decimated Yahoo
Groups which were like a dumbed-down version of email lists. FB does not
handle discussions very well at all. For one thing you have no control
over how your own Wall lists posts- it is strictly by the time of the
initial post with no option to switch that to time of latest post.
Lengthy discussions (usually the interesting ones!) will get buried by
newer posts and the only people still in the discussion are those who
get email notifications of new comments on posts that they have
participated in.

Facebook reportedly archives everything that you do or say, but there is
no easy way to access it (you need to scroll down your Wall by clicking
on Older Posts at the bottom.) You can't search through posts by
keywords or names or dates. I had gotten the impression that listserv
email lists were way over my head- like Unix. If you have an email
client that supports threads they are very easy to use. And if you move
the Blues-L posts to their own folder it is very easy to search through
them by keywords, dates or names.

One more quibble about Facebook: what we call "threads" are "posts," and
what we call "posts" are "comments." But my biggest complaint is that it
is designed for and by the post-Nintendo generations who usually prefer
to communicate with texts and Twitter-like posts rather than long
conversations, letters or emails. As though we all have the attention
span of a fly,

Steve Ahola

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s***@AOL.COM
2012-05-30 15:21:49 UTC
Permalink
I have followed this thread for quite a while and it amazes me that three topics can cause so much of an uproar..Stevie Vaughn, Eric Clapton and race in blues....I have not been following whats goin on in the "blues world" for a couple of years now due to the fact that the things I look for in music period have slowly become of little importance in the "popular" blues world. singing, stories in songs and taste have deteriorated to the point that it is very hard for me to even listen to blues radio. Lurrie Bell , Billy Branch, Joe Louis Walker and several other artists still doing things that are blues based but interesting and soulful are few and far between,. I have been following the soul side of blues for a long time and it seems that for now its my favorite genre if I have to lable it....I like Americana and roots music as well but for me I miss singers and songs in what people term "blues" .

Scott



-----Original Message-----
From: Ricky Stevens <***@HOTMAIL.COM>
To: BLUES-L <BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM>
Sent: Wed, May 30, 2012 10:02 am
Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'


Forgive my ignorance of life in the Delta. Of course you're right.
t is painfully obvious I don't have your experience or depth of knowledge.
here's no way any black person in Mississippi ever listened to anything
esembling country music.
http://youtu.be/96NwV6g-3PE
Ricky Stevens
Arkabutla, Mississippi
> Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 16:46:18 +0300
From: ***@gmail.com
To: ***@HOTMAIL.COM
CC: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'

Yeah, this is blues in the Mississippi John Hurt genre. In the end, is
it even necessary to categorise music? Listen to what you enjoy. Period.
Harri



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chuck 249
2012-05-30 14:07:47 UTC
Permalink
I think it helps, to a certain degree, to have music categorized...in order
to make the piles smaller. I don't want to have to sift through it all when I am
in discovery mode.

On May 30, 2012, at 8:57, Harri Haka <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yeah, this is blues in the Mississippi John Hurt genre. In the end, is
> it even necessary to categorise music? Listen to what you enjoy. Period.
> Harri
>
>
> 30.5.2012 5:03, Ricky Stevens kirjoitti:
>> Here's a sample from the most popular country singer of the pre-war era. His music was played on most radio stations in the south. His records were sold in large numbers in the same area.
>> Of course, I don't hear any of this influence in any blues record ever made.
>>
>> http://youtu.be/qEIBmGZxAhg
>>
>> Ricky Stevens
>>
>> Arkabutla, Mississippi
>>
>>
>>
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Steve Ahola
2012-05-30 19:50:34 UTC
Permalink
Here's the Delmore Brothers doing Brown's Ferry Blues from the
mid-30's. While the vocals have little in common I think that blues
guitarists picked up a lot of cool riffs from the country players back
then. Or is it just vocals that we are considering? (I love the vocals
on this song even though they have little in common with black blues.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVJWHPeeWSo


Bob Williams and his Texas Playboys doing "Milk Cow Blues":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2874tImDs

and "Brain Cloudy Blues":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv466uzYLI4

I think that jump blues bands of the late 40's and 50's were influenced
in part by the arrangements in the country bands.

So do we have an icon showing a dead horse being beaten? <g>

Steve Ahola

On 5/29/2012 7:03 PM, Ricky Stevens wrote:
> Here's a sample from the most popular country singer of the pre-war era. His music was played on most radio stations in the south. His records were sold in large numbers in the same area.
> Of course, I don't hear any of this influence in any blues record ever made.
>
> http://youtu.be/qEIBmGZxAhg
>
> Ricky Stevens
>
> Arkabutla, Mississippi
>
>
>
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Steve Ahola
2012-05-30 00:46:43 UTC
Permalink
Harri:

If you go back to the 20's and 30's country and blues artists often
played the same songs and I believe that they did influence each other a
lot. When we get to the 40's and 50's there was less of a mutual
influence as country became C&W and blues became R&B. (But it was said
that when Earl Hooker was touring in the south he would show up at C&W
clubs and blow their socks off with his playing.)

Steve Ahola

On 5/29/2012 2:23 PM, Harri Haka wrote:
> I had the priviilige of meeting Willie "Big Eyes" Smith two months
> before he died. We talked about white singers with a black voice e.g.
> Tom Jones. And Charley Pride and Ray Charles doing c&w. I doubt that
> blues musicians were actually influenced by c&w and all of us can hear
> this on recordings and live shows. To be a smart ass, one might say that
> every musician is influenced by Beethoven. But Chuck Berry gave his
> answer to that question.
> Harri
>
>
> 29.5.2012 6:09, Tom Hyslop kirjoitti:
>> Harri,
>>
>> Respectfully submitted, your position as stated is simply incorrect.
>>
>> Every bluesman of a certain age that I have interviewed - including
>> Magic Slim, Phillip Walker, Big Jack Johnson, John Primer, and many
>> others - professed a deep and abiding love for country music. Whether
>> it was an innate feeling for the style or the fact that it was all
>> they heard on the radio, as has been mentioned, does not much matter.
>> Howlin' Wolf cited the yodeling of The Singing Brakeman, Jimmie
>> Rodgers, as the inspiration for his own vocalizations. Mel Brown
>> toured with Tompall Glaser, just as he did with Bobby Bland; Glaser is
>> a country artist. You can look it up. Or you can continue to believe
>> what you want, rather than to face facts.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> tom
>>
>> At 3:34 AM +0300 5/29/12, Harri Haka wrote:
>>> Like I was saying, there was not a general interest for country music
>>> among the wider black audience. It is of course natural for a talent
>>> like B.B. King to have studied all genres including country and jazz.
>>> But does any of this reflect on his actual playing or singing? He has
>>> flirted with U2, Eric Clapton and others in the past years but I hardly
>>> find a c&w influence on any of his recordings. Mississippi John Hurt is
>>> greatly respected but he was a folk singer and story teller with a
>>> natural connection to country music of his time.
>>> Harri
>>>
>>>
>>> 29.5.2012 2:35, ***@aol.com kirjoitti:
>>>>
>>>> Not wanting to take part in the c&w discussion more than to say
>>>> that
>>>> there was never a general interest in country music within the
>>>> black
>>>> community.
>>>>
>>>> ------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is absolutely not true.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Blues people growing up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s all
>>>> listened to WLAC (Nashville) with its powerful signal.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> B.B.King told me in great detail how he had listen to Gene Autry
>>>> and Red Foley and Jimmy Rogers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mississippi John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt with me" is
>>>> unmistakably Jimmy Rogers'"All Around the Water Tank" a/k/a "Waiting
>>>> for a Train."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dick Waterman
>>>> 1601 Buchanan Avenue
>>>> Oxford, MS 38655
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>
>
>
>
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Joel Fritz
2012-05-30 04:20:07 UTC
Permalink
The most obvious thing I can cite is an almost perfect note for note
cover of Blind Lemon Jefferson's "Matchbox Blues" by a (white) guy named
Larry Hensley. Sylvester Weaver's "Guitar Rag" became the country
standard instrumental "Steel Guitar Rag." Dick Justice's "Cocaine
Blues" echoes the style of Virginia blues player Luke Jordan. Kokomo
Arnold's "Milk Cow Blues" became a country standard in the '30s. It was
even covered by Elvis. On the other hand Casey Bill Weldon and Oscar
Woods played Hawaiian style guitar very similar to the style that led to
country steel guitar. Weldon was very popular in his day. His biggest
hit was probably "I'm Going to Move to the Outskirts of Town," which he
wrote. "What's the Matter With the Mill" was a standard in the
repertoire of western swing bands. A group including Big Bill Broonzy
and Thomas A. Dorsey recorded a song called "Eagle Riding Papas" that
was also used, with slightly different lyrics, as Bob Wills' theme
song. Starting in New Orleans in the 1890s or so, a tune called "My
Bucket's Got a Hole in It" was recorded by all sorts of black and white
players. It was one of Buddy Bolden's signature tunes. Some of you may
remember the version by Ricky Nelson. :) I like the Washboard Sam
version myself. Sam McGee recorded a few fingerpicking tunes that
could have just as easily been done by any number of the East Coast
blues players from the '20s and '30s like Gary Davis, Buddy Moss, Blind
Boy Fuller, Josh White....

On the other side, Chuck Berry's "Maybelline" was originally called "Ida
Red."

Fritz Bros Tunes: http://www.youtube.com/user/thefritzbrothers?feature=watch


On 5/29/2012 2:54 PM, Steve Ahola wrote:
> Harri:
>
> If you go back to the 20's and 30's country and blues artists often
> played the same songs and I believe that they did influence each other a
> lot. When we get to the 40's and 50's there was less of a mutual
> influence as country became C&W and blues became R&B. (But it was said
> that when Earl Hooker was touring in the south he would show up at C&W
> clubs and blow their socks off with his playing.)
>
> Steve Ahola
>
> On 5/29/2012 2:23 PM, Harri Haka wrote:
>> I had the priviilige of meeting Willie "Big Eyes" Smith two months
>> before he died. We talked about white singers with a black voice e.g.
>> Tom Jones. And Charley Pride and Ray Charles doing c&w. I doubt that
>> blues musicians were actually influenced by c&w and all of us can hear
>> this on recordings and live shows. To be a smart ass, one might say that
>> every musician is influenced by Beethoven. But Chuck Berry gave his
>> answer to that question.
>> Harri
>>
>>
>> 29.5.2012 6:09, Tom Hyslop kirjoitti:
>>> Harri,
>>>
>>> Respectfully submitted, your position as stated is simply incorrect.
>>>
>>> Every bluesman of a certain age that I have interviewed - including
>>> Magic Slim, Phillip Walker, Big Jack Johnson, John Primer, and many
>>> others - professed a deep and abiding love for country music. Whether
>>> it was an innate feeling for the style or the fact that it was all
>>> they heard on the radio, as has been mentioned, does not much matter.
>>> Howlin' Wolf cited the yodeling of The Singing Brakeman, Jimmie
>>> Rodgers, as the inspiration for his own vocalizations. Mel Brown
>>> toured with Tompall Glaser, just as he did with Bobby Bland; Glaser is
>>> a country artist. You can look it up. Or you can continue to believe
>>> what you want, rather than to face facts.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> tom
>>>
>>> At 3:34 AM +0300 5/29/12, Harri Haka wrote:
>>>> Like I was saying, there was not a general interest for country music
>>>> among the wider black audience. It is of course natural for a talent
>>>> like B.B. King to have studied all genres including country and jazz.
>>>> But does any of this reflect on his actual playing or singing? He has
>>>> flirted with U2, Eric Clapton and others in the past years but I
>>>> hardly
>>>> find a c&w influence on any of his recordings. Mississippi John
>>>> Hurt is
>>>> greatly respected but he was a folk singer and story teller with a
>>>> natural connection to country music of his time.
>>>> Harri
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 29.5.2012 2:35, ***@aol.com kirjoitti:
>>>>>
>>>>> Not wanting to take part in the c&w discussion more than to say
>>>>> that
>>>>> there was never a general interest in country music within the
>>>>> black
>>>>> community.
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is absolutely not true.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Blues people growing up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s all
>>>>> listened to WLAC (Nashville) with its powerful signal.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> B.B.King told me in great detail how he had listen to Gene Autry
>>>>> and Red Foley and Jimmy Rogers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mississippi John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt with me" is
>>>>> unmistakably Jimmy Rogers'"All Around the Water Tank" a/k/a "Waiting
>>>>> for a Train."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dick Waterman
>>>>> 1601 Buchanan Avenue
>>>>> Oxford, MS 38655
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ========================================
>>>> Archives & web interface:
>>>> http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML
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>>>> owner-BLUES-***@listserv.nethelps.com
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>>>> ***@listserv.nethelps.com, with the message: unsubscribe BLUES-L
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
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Steve Ahola
2012-05-30 19:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Joel:

It is good to hear from an expert on pre-war blues in this discussion.
The recordings that made it through the years are only the tip of the
iceberg of what was happening in the rural South before WWII. Record
companies were only interested in artists who might sell records for
them- and lots of them! As for Robert Johnson it is said that he played
all sorts of music besides blues, but Columbia only wanted to record him
doing blues songs (although he was able to sneak in "They're Red Hot.")

Steve Ahola

On 5/29/2012 9:08 PM, Joel Fritz wrote:
> The most obvious thing I can cite is an almost perfect note for note
> cover of Blind Lemon Jefferson's "Matchbox Blues" by a (white) guy named
> Larry Hensley. Sylvester Weaver's "Guitar Rag" became the country
> standard instrumental "Steel Guitar Rag." Dick Justice's "Cocaine
> Blues" echoes the style of Virginia blues player Luke Jordan. Kokomo
> Arnold's "Milk Cow Blues" became a country standard in the '30s. It was
> even covered by Elvis. On the other hand Casey Bill Weldon and Oscar
> Woods played Hawaiian style guitar very similar to the style that led to
> country steel guitar. Weldon was very popular in his day. His biggest
> hit was probably "I'm Going to Move to the Outskirts of Town," which he
> wrote. "What's the Matter With the Mill" was a standard in the
> repertoire of western swing bands. A group including Big Bill Broonzy
> and Thomas A. Dorsey recorded a song called "Eagle Riding Papas" that
> was also used, with slightly different lyrics, as Bob Wills' theme
> song. Starting in New Orleans in the 1890s or so, a tune called "My
> Bucket's Got a Hole in It" was recorded by all sorts of black and white
> players. It was one of Buddy Bolden's signature tunes. Some of you may
> remember the version by Ricky Nelson. :) I like the Washboard Sam
> version myself. Sam McGee recorded a few fingerpicking tunes that
> could have just as easily been done by any number of the East Coast
> blues players from the '20s and '30s like Gary Davis, Buddy Moss, Blind
> Boy Fuller, Josh White....
>
> On the other side, Chuck Berry's "Maybelline" was originally called "Ida
> Red."
>
> Fritz Bros Tunes:
> http://www.youtube.com/user/thefritzbrothers?feature=watch
>
>
> On 5/29/2012 2:54 PM, Steve Ahola wrote:
>> Harri:
>>
>> If you go back to the 20's and 30's country and blues artists often
>> played the same songs and I believe that they did influence each other a
>> lot. When we get to the 40's and 50's there was less of a mutual
>> influence as country became C&W and blues became R&B. (But it was said
>> that when Earl Hooker was touring in the south he would show up at C&W
>> clubs and blow their socks off with his playing.)
>>
>> Steve Ahola
>>
>> On 5/29/2012 2:23 PM, Harri Haka wrote:
>>> I had the priviilige of meeting Willie "Big Eyes" Smith two months
>>> before he died. We talked about white singers with a black voice e.g.
>>> Tom Jones. And Charley Pride and Ray Charles doing c&w. I doubt that
>>> blues musicians were actually influenced by c&w and all of us can hear
>>> this on recordings and live shows. To be a smart ass, one might say
>>> that
>>> every musician is influenced by Beethoven. But Chuck Berry gave his
>>> answer to that question.
>>> Harri
>>>
>>>
>>> 29.5.2012 6:09, Tom Hyslop kirjoitti:
>>>> Harri,
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully submitted, your position as stated is simply incorrect.
>>>>
>>>> Every bluesman of a certain age that I have interviewed - including
>>>> Magic Slim, Phillip Walker, Big Jack Johnson, John Primer, and many
>>>> others - professed a deep and abiding love for country music. Whether
>>>> it was an innate feeling for the style or the fact that it was all
>>>> they heard on the radio, as has been mentioned, does not much matter.
>>>> Howlin' Wolf cited the yodeling of The Singing Brakeman, Jimmie
>>>> Rodgers, as the inspiration for his own vocalizations. Mel Brown
>>>> toured with Tompall Glaser, just as he did with Bobby Bland; Glaser is
>>>> a country artist. You can look it up. Or you can continue to believe
>>>> what you want, rather than to face facts.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> tom
>>>>
>>>> At 3:34 AM +0300 5/29/12, Harri Haka wrote:
>>>>> Like I was saying, there was not a general interest for country music
>>>>> among the wider black audience. It is of course natural for a talent
>>>>> like B.B. King to have studied all genres including country and jazz.
>>>>> But does any of this reflect on his actual playing or singing? He has
>>>>> flirted with U2, Eric Clapton and others in the past years but I
>>>>> hardly
>>>>> find a c&w influence on any of his recordings. Mississippi John
>>>>> Hurt is
>>>>> greatly respected but he was a folk singer and story teller with a
>>>>> natural connection to country music of his time.
>>>>> Harri
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 29.5.2012 2:35, ***@aol.com kirjoitti:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not wanting to take part in the c&w discussion more than to say
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> there was never a general interest in country music within the
>>>>>> black
>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is absolutely not true.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blues people growing up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s all
>>>>>> listened to WLAC (Nashville) with its powerful signal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> B.B.King told me in great detail how he had listen to Gene Autry
>>>>>> and Red Foley and Jimmy Rogers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mississippi John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt with me" is
>>>>>> unmistakably Jimmy Rogers'"All Around the Water Tank" a/k/a "Waiting
>>>>>> for a Train."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dick Waterman
>>>>>> 1601 Buchanan Avenue
>>>>>> Oxford, MS 38655
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ========================================
>>>>> Archives & web interface:
>>>>> http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML
>>>>> - To contact the administrator, send an email addressed to:
>>>>> owner-BLUES-***@listserv.nethelps.com
>>>>> - To unsubscribe, send a new email addressed to:
>>>>> ***@listserv.nethelps.com, with the message: unsubscribe BLUES-L
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ========================================
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>>
>>
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Joel Fritz
2012-05-30 04:20:21 UTC
Permalink
Then there are recordings by the Mississippi Sheiks, the Dallas String
Band, Andrew and Jim Baxter, Peg Leg Howell and Eddie Anthony, and Gus
Cannon that had obvious elements in common with the white music of the
period between 1890 and 1930.

I think that people playing rural music in the south at that time didn't
have the idea that they were representatives of a "Culture." They were
trying to entertain people. That's not to say that there weren't
differences in performance practice. There was plenty of overlap too.

Fritz Bros Tunes: http://www.youtube.com/user/thefritzbrothers?feature=watch


On 5/29/2012 2:54 PM, Steve Ahola wrote:
> Harri:
>
> If you go back to the 20's and 30's country and blues artists often
> played the same songs and I believe that they did influence each other a
> lot. When we get to the 40's and 50's there was less of a mutual
> influence as country became C&W and blues became R&B. (But it was said
> that when Earl Hooker was touring in the south he would show up at C&W
> clubs and blow their socks off with his playing.)
>
> Steve Ahola
>
> On 5/29/2012 2:23 PM, Harri Haka wrote:
>> I had the priviilige of meeting Willie "Big Eyes" Smith two months
>> before he died. We talked about white singers with a black voice e.g.
>> Tom Jones. And Charley Pride and Ray Charles doing c&w. I doubt that
>> blues musicians were actually influenced by c&w and all of us can hear
>> this on recordings and live shows. To be a smart ass, one might say that
>> every musician is influenced by Beethoven. But Chuck Berry gave his
>> answer to that question.
>> Harri
>>
>>
>> 29.5.2012 6:09, Tom Hyslop kirjoitti:
>>> Harri,
>>>
>>> Respectfully submitted, your position as stated is simply incorrect.
>>>
>>> Every bluesman of a certain age that I have interviewed - including
>>> Magic Slim, Phillip Walker, Big Jack Johnson, John Primer, and many
>>> others - professed a deep and abiding love for country music. Whether
>>> it was an innate feeling for the style or the fact that it was all
>>> they heard on the radio, as has been mentioned, does not much matter.
>>> Howlin' Wolf cited the yodeling of The Singing Brakeman, Jimmie
>>> Rodgers, as the inspiration for his own vocalizations. Mel Brown
>>> toured with Tompall Glaser, just as he did with Bobby Bland; Glaser is
>>> a country artist. You can look it up. Or you can continue to believe
>>> what you want, rather than to face facts.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> tom
>>>
>>> At 3:34 AM +0300 5/29/12, Harri Haka wrote:
>>>> Like I was saying, there was not a general interest for country music
>>>> among the wider black audience. It is of course natural for a talent
>>>> like B.B. King to have studied all genres including country and jazz.
>>>> But does any of this reflect on his actual playing or singing? He has
>>>> flirted with U2, Eric Clapton and others in the past years but I
>>>> hardly
>>>> find a c&w influence on any of his recordings. Mississippi John
>>>> Hurt is
>>>> greatly respected but he was a folk singer and story teller with a
>>>> natural connection to country music of his time.
>>>> Harri
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 29.5.2012 2:35, ***@aol.com kirjoitti:
>>>>>
>>>>> Not wanting to take part in the c&w discussion more than to say
>>>>> that
>>>>> there was never a general interest in country music within the
>>>>> black
>>>>> community.
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is absolutely not true.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Blues people growing up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s all
>>>>> listened to WLAC (Nashville) with its powerful signal.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> B.B.King told me in great detail how he had listen to Gene Autry
>>>>> and Red Foley and Jimmy Rogers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mississippi John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt with me" is
>>>>> unmistakably Jimmy Rogers'"All Around the Water Tank" a/k/a "Waiting
>>>>> for a Train."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dick Waterman
>>>>> 1601 Buchanan Avenue
>>>>> Oxford, MS 38655
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ========================================
>>>> Archives & web interface:
>>>> http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML
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l***@MYFAIRPOINT.NET
2012-05-29 21:54:25 UTC
Permalink
Have you ever been to Memphis and traveled the surrounding area -- Mississippi, Arkansas --
Harri?  It sounds like you haven't.  Because if you go, you will see
how everybody was thrown together into a melting pot of music, white,
black, creole and more. With the river making travel fairly easy, one would have had
to have been deaf not to have been influenced by everything being
played in those parts. And musicians surely are not deaf.

On Wed, 30 May 2012 00:23:05 0300, Harri Haka wrote:
I had the priviilige of meeting Willie "Big Eyes" Smith two months
> before he died. We talked about white singers with a black voice e.g.
> Tom Jones. And Charley Pride and Ray Charles doing c&w. I doubt that
> blues musicians were actually influenced by c&w and all of us can hear
> this on recordings and live shows. To be a smart ass, one might say that
> every musician is influenced by Beethoven. But Chuck Berry gave his
> answer to that question.
> Harri
>
>
> 29.5.2012 6:09, Tom Hyslop kirjoitti:
> > Harri,
> >
> > Respectfully submitted, your position as stated is simply incorrect.
> >
> > Every bluesman of a certain age that I have interviewed - including
> > Magic Slim, Phillip Walker, Big Jack Johnson, John Primer, and many
> > others - professed a deep and abiding love for country music. Whether
> > it was an innate feeling for the style or the fact that it was all
> > they heard on the radio, as has been mentioned, does not much matter.
> > Howlin' Wolf cited the yodeling of The Singing Brakeman, Jimmie
> > Rodgers, as the inspiration for his own vocalizations. Mel Brown
> > toured with Tompall Glaser, just as he did with Bobby Bland; Glaser is
> > a country artist. You can look it up. Or you can continue to believe
> > what you want, rather than to face facts.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > tom
> >
> > At 3:34 AM 0300 5/29/12, Harri Haka wrote:
> >> Like I was saying, there was not a general interest for country music
> >> among the wider black audience. It is of course natural for a talent
> >> like B.B. King to have studied all genres including country and jazz.
> >> But does any of this reflect on his actual playing or singing? He has
> >> flirted with U2, Eric Clapton and others in the past years but I hardly
> >> find a c&w influence on any of his recordings. Mississippi John Hurt is
> >> greatly respected but he was a folk singer and story teller with a
> >> natural connection to country music of his time.
> >> Harri
> >>
> >>
> >> 29.5.2012 2:35, ***@aol.com kirjoitti:
> >>>
> >>> Not wanting to take part in the c&w discussion more than to say
> >>> that
> >>> there was never a general interest in country music within the
> >>> black
> >>> community.
> >>>
> >>> ------------
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> This is absolutely not true.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Blues people growing up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s all
> >>> listened to WLAC (Nashville) with its powerful signal.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> B.B.King told me in great detail how he had listen to Gene Autry
> >>> and Red Foley and Jimmy Rogers.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Mississippi John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt with me" is
> >>> unmistakably Jimmy Rogers'"All Around the Water Tank" a/k/a "Waiting
> >>> for a Train."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Dick Waterman
> >>> 1601 Buchanan Avenue
> >>> Oxford, MS 38655
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ========================================
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> >> http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML
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> >
>
>
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l***@MYFAIRPOINT.NET
2012-05-29 22:02:28 UTC
Permalink
http://youtu.be/szya2It2MqY

On Tue, 29 May 2012 17:33:40 -0400, ***@AOL.COM wrote:
I doubt that
> blues musicians were actually influenced by c&w and all of us can hear
> this on recordings and live shows. -------------------
>
> I think this thread has gone on long enough . . .
>
> My final thought is that Howling Wolf said that his 'howl' was his
> version of Jimmy Rogers' yodel . . .
>
>
> Dick Waterman
> 1601 Buchanan Avenue
> Oxford, MS 38655
>
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chuck 249
2012-05-29 23:03:55 UTC
Permalink
Thank the hell out of ya....!

On May 29, 2012, at 17:01, "***@myfairpoint.net"
<***@myfairpoint.net> wrote:

> http://youtu.be/szya2It2MqY
>
> On Tue, 29 May 2012 17:33:40 -0400, ***@AOL.COM wrote:
> I doubt that
>> blues musicians were actually influenced by c&w and all of us can hear
>> this on recordings and live shows. -------------------
>>
>> I think this thread has gone on long enough . . .
>>
>> My final thought is that Howling Wolf said that his 'howl' was his
>> version of Jimmy Rogers' yodel . . .
>>
>>
>> Dick Waterman
>> 1601 Buchanan Avenue
>> Oxford, MS 38655
>>
>> ========================================
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j***@AOL.COM
2012-05-30 00:21:55 UTC
Permalink
http://youtu.be/szya2It2MqY

----------

Boy, I feel like I have just played both roles in "Dumb and Dumber."

For years, "I" was the one who told people that Earl Hooker had separate careers playing blues in Chicago and country our in the sticks.

He had a whole circuit of clubs in Moline, Davenport, Rock Island and other places in Iowa and western Illinois.

It helped him stay out of Chicago so he was not overexposed and he did the country places just enough to hold that audience.

I cannot believe that I knew that so well and just blanked on bringing it forth . . .






Dick Waterman
1601 Buchanan Avenue
Oxford, MS 38655




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Stan Erhart
2012-05-30 02:34:42 UTC
Permalink
The first line of the last verse has become a standard blues lyric. It's just not usually followed by a yodel.

"I'd rather drink muddy water and sleep in a hollow log"
------Original Message------
From: Ricky Stevens
Sender: Blues-L List
To: Blues-L List
ReplyTo: Ricky Stevens
Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'
Sent: May 29, 2012 7:03 PM

Here's a sample from the most popular country singer of the pre-war era. His music was played on most radio stations in the south. His records were sold in large numbers in the same area.
Of course, I don't hear any of this influence in any blues record ever made.

http://youtu.be/qEIBmGZxAhg

Ricky Stevens

Arkabutla, Mississippi



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Ricky Stevens
2012-05-30 02:47:10 UTC
Permalink
Surely you are mistaken.

There's obviously nothing in this song by a white country singer that could possibly have influenced any black blues singer at any time in any locale.

Ricky Stevens

Arkabutla, Mississippi

> Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 02:33:04 +0000
> From: ***@ERHART.NET
> Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'
> To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
>
> The first line of the last verse has become a standard blues lyric. It's just not usually followed by a yodel.
>
> "I'd rather drink muddy water and sleep in a hollow log"
> ------Original Message------
> From: Ricky Stevens
> Sender: Blues-L List
> To: Blues-L List
> ReplyTo: Ricky Stevens
> Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'
> Sent: May 29, 2012 7:03 PM
>
> Here's a sample from the most popular country singer of the pre-war era. His music was played on most radio stations in the south. His records were sold in large numbers in the same area.
> Of course, I don't hear any of this influence in any blues record ever made.
>
> http://youtu.be/qEIBmGZxAhg
>
> Ricky Stevens
>
> Arkabutla, Mississippi
>
>
>
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Jonny Meister
2012-05-30 10:55:51 UTC
Permalink
I thought Eddie Miller recorded this song first, before Rodgers - -
also, I'm sure I've heard this lyric from one of the great blues
women of the 20s, though it wasn't the title of the song... racking
my brains to figure out what artist and what song!

At 10:33 PM 5/29/2012, Stan Erhart wrote:
>The first line of the last verse has become a standard blues lyric.
>It's just not usually followed by a yodel.
>
>"I'd rather drink muddy water and sleep in a hollow log"

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l***@MYFAIRPOINT.NET
2012-05-30 02:48:43 UTC
Permalink
Doc Watson often sat somewhere between country and blues. 

On Wed, 30 May 2012 02:33:04 +0000, Stan Erhart <***@erhart.net> wrote:
The first line of the last verse has become a standard blues lyric.
It's just not usually followed by a yodel.
>
> "I'd rather drink muddy water and sleep in a hollow log"
> ------Original Message------
> From: Ricky Stevens
> Sender: Blues-L List
> To: Blues-L List
> ReplyTo: Ricky Stevens
> Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'
> Sent: May 29, 2012 7:03 PM
>
> Here's a sample from the most popular country singer of the pre-war
> era. His music was played on most radio stations in the south. His
> records were sold in large numbers in the same area.
> Of course, I don't hear any of this influence in any blues record ever made.
>
> http://youtu.be/qEIBmGZxAhg
>
> Ricky Stevens Arkabutla, Mississippi
>
>
>
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MARK SCHOSSOW
2012-05-30 16:20:53 UTC
Permalink
If you think that race and Blues was a tough issue,wait till the gender thing is addressed.
Mark.

-----Original Message-----

From: ***@AOL.COM
Sent: 30 May 2012 15:22:52 GMT
To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'

I have followed this thread for quite a while and it amazes me that three topics can cause so much of an uproar..Stevie Vaughn, Eric Clapton and race in blues....I have not been following whats goin on in the "blues world" for a couple of years now due to the fact that the things I look for in music period have slowly become of little importance in the "popular" blues world. singing, stories in songs and taste have deteriorated to the point that it is very hard for me to even listen to blues radio. Lurrie Bell , Billy Branch, Joe Louis Walker and several other artists still doing things that are blues based but interesting and soulful are few and far between,. I have been following the soul side of blues for a long time and it seems that for now its my favorite genre if I have to lable it....I like Americana and roots music as well but for me I miss singers and songs in what people term "blues" .

Scott



-----Original Message-----
From: Ricky Stevens <***@HOTMAIL.COM>
To: BLUES-L <BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM>
Sent: Wed, May 30, 2012 10:02 am
Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'


Forgive my ignorance of life in the Delta. Of course you're right.
t is painfully obvious I don't have your experience or depth of knowledge.
here's no way any black person in Mississippi ever listened to anything
esembling country music.
http://youtu.be/96NwV6g-3PE
Ricky Stevens
Arkabutla, Mississippi
> Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 16:46:18 +0300
From: ***@gmail.com
To: ***@HOTMAIL.COM
CC: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'

Yeah, this is blues in the Mississippi John Hurt genre. In the end, is
it even necessary to categorise music? Listen to what you enjoy. Period.
Harri



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Ricky Stevens
2012-05-30 16:38:01 UTC
Permalink
>
> If you think that race and Blues was a tough issue,wait till the gender thing is addressed.
> Mark.

You mean like "Mama fell in the cotton trailer but we didn't know it until we ginned her"?

Ricky Stevens
Arkabutla, Mississippi


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Joel Fritz
2012-05-30 23:32:51 UTC
Permalink
I think the commercial term for country music in the 1920s was
"hillbilly." There were a lot of records released by artists like
Charley Poole, Gid Tanner, Darby and Tarlton, just to name a few.
Jimmie Rodgers was the first big commercial success, but stuff like
string band music, ballads, and cowboy songs preceded him.

Did blues become R&B? It's a semantic thing. In the '50s when the
record business started charting singles blues records that sold well
made the R&B chart because that was the category the business tracked
the sales in. Of course there's an evolution and crossover thing too.
Fats Domino, Smiley Lewis, Joe Turner (the "Chains of Love" and "Shake
Rattle and Roll" period,) Johnny Guitar Watson (waay pre disco,) Guitar
Slim, Big Maybelle, Big Mama Thornton,... Blues or R&B? I first heard
B. B. King, Albert King, Albert Collins, and some others on soul music
radio stations along with James Brown and the usual suspects.

Certainly the categories are useful. They're useful in a descriptive
way, not a prescriptive way. Like any categories things get fuzzy
around the edges and neighbors tend to overlap. There's no doubt that
black and white musicians listened to each others' music and, to some
extent, influenced each other. It doesn't mean that Muddy Waters wanted
to sound like Webb Pierce.

One more factoid: In the '60s and '70s Blind John Davis, who played on
many of the great blues records that came out of Chicago in the '30s and
'40s including most of the sides SBWI recorded, had a regular gig
playing cocktail piano in a bar in Chicago. He played standards and
current hits.

Fritz Bros Tunes: http://www.youtube.com/user/thefritzbrothers?feature=watch


On 5/30/2012 7:27 AM, MARK SCHOSSOW wrote:
> What country music of the 20s&30s.And Blues never became "r&B." or visa versa.At least that I'm aware of,cuz I've been surprised alot this last week.
> Yup.
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Joel Fritz
> Sent: 30 May 2012 04:21:04 GMT
> To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
> Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender& the Blues'
>
> The most obvious thing I can cite is an almost perfect note for note
> cover of Blind Lemon Jefferson's "Matchbox Blues" by a (white) guy named
> Larry Hensley. Sylvester Weaver's "Guitar Rag" became the country
> standard instrumental "Steel Guitar Rag." Dick Justice's "Cocaine
> Blues" echoes the style of Virginia blues player Luke Jordan. Kokomo
> Arnold's "Milk Cow Blues" became a country standard in the '30s. It was
> even covered by Elvis. On the other hand Casey Bill Weldon and Oscar
> Woods played Hawaiian style guitar very similar to the style that led to
> country steel guitar. Weldon was very popular in his day. His biggest
> hit was probably "I'm Going to Move to the Outskirts of Town," which he
> wrote. "What's the Matter With the Mill" was a standard in the
> repertoire of western swing bands. A group including Big Bill Broonzy
> and Thomas A. Dorsey recorded a song called "Eagle Riding Papas" that
> was also used, with slightly different lyrics, as Bob Wills' theme
> song. Starting in New Orleans in the 1890s or so, a tune called "My
> Bucket's Got a Hole in It" was recorded by all sorts of black and white
> players. It was one of Buddy Bolden's signature tunes. Some of you may
> remember the version by Ricky Nelson. :) I like the Washboard Sam
> version myself. Sam McGee recorded a few fingerpicking tunes that
> could have just as easily been done by any number of the East Coast
> blues players from the '20s and '30s like Gary Davis, Buddy Moss, Blind
> Boy Fuller, Josh White....
>
> On the other side, Chuck Berry's "Maybelline" was originally called "Ida
> Red."
>
> Fritz Bros Tunes: http://www.youtube.com/user/thefritzbrothers?feature=watch
>
>
> On 5/29/2012 2:54 PM, Steve Ahola wrote:
>> Harri:
>>
>> If you go back to the 20's and 30's country and blues artists often
>> played the same songs and I believe that they did influence each other a
>> lot. When we get to the 40's and 50's there was less of a mutual
>> influence as country became C&W and blues became R&B. (But it was said
>> that when Earl Hooker was touring in the south he would show up at C&W
>> clubs and blow their socks off with his playing.)
>>
>> Steve Ahola
>>
>> On 5/29/2012 2:23 PM, Harri Haka wrote:
>>> I had the priviilige of meeting Willie "Big Eyes" Smith two months
>>> before he died. We talked about white singers with a black voice e.g.
>>> Tom Jones. And Charley Pride and Ray Charles doing c&w. I doubt that
>>> blues musicians were actually influenced by c&w and all of us can hear
>>> this on recordings and live shows. To be a smart ass, one might say that
>>> every musician is influenced by Beethoven. But Chuck Berry gave his
>>> answer to that question.
>>> Harri
>>>
>>>
>>> 29.5.2012 6:09, Tom Hyslop kirjoitti:
>>>> Harri,
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully submitted, your position as stated is simply incorrect.
>>>>
>>>> Every bluesman of a certain age that I have interviewed - including
>>>> Magic Slim, Phillip Walker, Big Jack Johnson, John Primer, and many
>>>> others - professed a deep and abiding love for country music. Whether
>>>> it was an innate feeling for the style or the fact that it was all
>>>> they heard on the radio, as has been mentioned, does not much matter.
>>>> Howlin' Wolf cited the yodeling of The Singing Brakeman, Jimmie
>>>> Rodgers, as the inspiration for his own vocalizations. Mel Brown
>>>> toured with Tompall Glaser, just as he did with Bobby Bland; Glaser is
>>>> a country artist. You can look it up. Or you can continue to believe
>>>> what you want, rather than to face facts.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> tom
>>>>
>>>> At 3:34 AM +0300 5/29/12, Harri Haka wrote:
>>>>> Like I was saying, there was not a general interest for country music
>>>>> among the wider black audience. It is of course natural for a talent
>>>>> like B.B. King to have studied all genres including country and jazz.
>>>>> But does any of this reflect on his actual playing or singing? He has
>>>>> flirted with U2, Eric Clapton and others in the past years but I
>>>>> hardly
>>>>> find a c&w influence on any of his recordings. Mississippi John
>>>>> Hurt is
>>>>> greatly respected but he was a folk singer and story teller with a
>>>>> natural connection to country music of his time.
>>>>> Harri
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 29.5.2012 2:35, ***@aol.com kirjoitti:
>>>>>> Not wanting to take part in the c&w discussion more than to say
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> there was never a general interest in country music within the
>>>>>> black
>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is absolutely not true.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blues people growing up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s all
>>>>>> listened to WLAC (Nashville) with its powerful signal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> B.B.King told me in great detail how he had listen to Gene Autry
>>>>>> and Red Foley and Jimmy Rogers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mississippi John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt with me" is
>>>>>> unmistakably Jimmy Rogers'"All Around the Water Tank" a/k/a "Waiting
>>>>>> for a Train."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dick Waterman
>>>>>> 1601 Buchanan Avenue
>>>>>> Oxford, MS 38655
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ========================================
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Jimmy Jacobs
2012-05-31 00:14:10 UTC
Permalink
I am reminded that Hank Williams said that he recieved all of his musical
training from a local blues player named Rufus "Tee Tot" Payne, He was a
street musician in Georgiana and Greenville where Hank grew up. Died in
charity hospital in Montgomery and buried in an unmarked grave in Lincoln
cemetary.

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 6:30 PM, Joel Fritz <***@comcast.net>wrote:

> I think the commercial term for country music in the 1920s was
> "hillbilly." There were a lot of records released by artists like
> Charley Poole, Gid Tanner, Darby and Tarlton, just to name a few.
> Jimmie Rodgers was the first big commercial success, but stuff like
> string band music, ballads, and cowboy songs preceded him.
>
> Did blues become R&B? It's a semantic thing. In the '50s when the
> record business started charting singles blues records that sold well
> made the R&B chart because that was the category the business tracked
> the sales in. Of course there's an evolution and crossover thing too.
> Fats Domino, Smiley Lewis, Joe Turner (the "Chains of Love" and "Shake
> Rattle and Roll" period,) Johnny Guitar Watson (waay pre disco,) Guitar
> Slim, Big Maybelle, Big Mama Thornton,... Blues or R&B? I first heard
> B. B. King, Albert King, Albert Collins, and some others on soul music
> radio stations along with James Brown and the usual suspects.
>
> Certainly the categories are useful. They're useful in a descriptive
> way, not a prescriptive way. Like any categories things get fuzzy
> around the edges and neighbors tend to overlap. There's no doubt that
> black and white musicians listened to each others' music and, to some
> extent, influenced each other. It doesn't mean that Muddy Waters wanted
> to sound like Webb Pierce.
>
> One more factoid: In the '60s and '70s Blind John Davis, who played on
> many of the great blues records that came out of Chicago in the '30s and
> '40s including most of the sides SBWI recorded, had a regular gig
> playing cocktail piano in a bar in Chicago. He played standards and
> current hits.
>
> Fritz Bros Tunes: http://www.youtube.com/user/**
> thefritzbrothers?feature=watch<http://www.youtube.com/user/thefritzbrothers?feature=watch>
>
>
> On 5/30/2012 7:27 AM, MARK SCHOSSOW wrote:
>
>> What country music of the 20s&30s.And Blues never became "r&B." or visa
>> versa.At least that I'm aware of,cuz I've been surprised alot this last
>> week.
>> Yup.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Joel Fritz
>> Sent: 30 May 2012 04:21:04 GMT
>> To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
>> Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender& the Blues'
>>
>> The most obvious thing I can cite is an almost perfect note for note
>> cover of Blind Lemon Jefferson's "Matchbox Blues" by a (white) guy named
>> Larry Hensley. Sylvester Weaver's "Guitar Rag" became the country
>> standard instrumental "Steel Guitar Rag." Dick Justice's "Cocaine
>> Blues" echoes the style of Virginia blues player Luke Jordan. Kokomo
>> Arnold's "Milk Cow Blues" became a country standard in the '30s. It was
>> even covered by Elvis. On the other hand Casey Bill Weldon and Oscar
>> Woods played Hawaiian style guitar very similar to the style that led to
>> country steel guitar. Weldon was very popular in his day. His biggest
>> hit was probably "I'm Going to Move to the Outskirts of Town," which he
>> wrote. "What's the Matter With the Mill" was a standard in the
>> repertoire of western swing bands. A group including Big Bill Broonzy
>> and Thomas A. Dorsey recorded a song called "Eagle Riding Papas" that
>> was also used, with slightly different lyrics, as Bob Wills' theme
>> song. Starting in New Orleans in the 1890s or so, a tune called "My
>> Bucket's Got a Hole in It" was recorded by all sorts of black and white
>> players. It was one of Buddy Bolden's signature tunes. Some of you may
>> remember the version by Ricky Nelson. :) I like the Washboard Sam
>> version myself. Sam McGee recorded a few fingerpicking tunes that
>> could have just as easily been done by any number of the East Coast
>> blues players from the '20s and '30s like Gary Davis, Buddy Moss, Blind
>> Boy Fuller, Josh White....
>>
>> On the other side, Chuck Berry's "Maybelline" was originally called "Ida
>> Red."
>>
>> Fritz Bros Tunes: http://www.youtube.com/user/**
>> thefritzbrothers?feature=watch<http://www.youtube.com/user/thefritzbrothers?feature=watch>
>>
>>
>> On 5/29/2012 2:54 PM, Steve Ahola wrote:
>>
>>> Harri:
>>>
>>> If you go back to the 20's and 30's country and blues artists often
>>> played the same songs and I believe that they did influence each other a
>>> lot. When we get to the 40's and 50's there was less of a mutual
>>> influence as country became C&W and blues became R&B. (But it was said
>>> that when Earl Hooker was touring in the south he would show up at C&W
>>> clubs and blow their socks off with his playing.)
>>>
>>> Steve Ahola
>>>
>>> On 5/29/2012 2:23 PM, Harri Haka wrote:
>>>
>>>> I had the priviilige of meeting Willie "Big Eyes" Smith two months
>>>> before he died. We talked about white singers with a black voice e.g.
>>>> Tom Jones. And Charley Pride and Ray Charles doing c&w. I doubt that
>>>> blues musicians were actually influenced by c&w and all of us can hear
>>>> this on recordings and live shows. To be a smart ass, one might say that
>>>> every musician is influenced by Beethoven. But Chuck Berry gave his
>>>> answer to that question.
>>>> Harri
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 29.5.2012 6:09, Tom Hyslop kirjoitti:
>>>>
>>>>> Harri,
>>>>>
>>>>> Respectfully submitted, your position as stated is simply incorrect.
>>>>>
>>>>> Every bluesman of a certain age that I have interviewed - including
>>>>> Magic Slim, Phillip Walker, Big Jack Johnson, John Primer, and many
>>>>> others - professed a deep and abiding love for country music. Whether
>>>>> it was an innate feeling for the style or the fact that it was all
>>>>> they heard on the radio, as has been mentioned, does not much matter.
>>>>> Howlin' Wolf cited the yodeling of The Singing Brakeman, Jimmie
>>>>> Rodgers, as the inspiration for his own vocalizations. Mel Brown
>>>>> toured with Tompall Glaser, just as he did with Bobby Bland; Glaser is
>>>>> a country artist. You can look it up. Or you can continue to believe
>>>>> what you want, rather than to face facts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> tom
>>>>>
>>>>> At 3:34 AM +0300 5/29/12, Harri Haka wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Like I was saying, there was not a general interest for country music
>>>>>> among the wider black audience. It is of course natural for a talent
>>>>>> like B.B. King to have studied all genres including country and jazz.
>>>>>> But does any of this reflect on his actual playing or singing? He has
>>>>>> flirted with U2, Eric Clapton and others in the past years but I
>>>>>> hardly
>>>>>> find a c&w influence on any of his recordings. Mississippi John
>>>>>> Hurt is
>>>>>> greatly respected but he was a folk singer and story teller with a
>>>>>> natural connection to country music of his time.
>>>>>> Harri
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 29.5.2012 2:35, ***@aol.com kirjoitti:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not wanting to take part in the c&w discussion more than to say
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> there was never a general interest in country music within the
>>>>>>> black
>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is absolutely not true.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Blues people growing up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s all
>>>>>>> listened to WLAC (Nashville) with its powerful signal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> B.B.King told me in great detail how he had listen to Gene Autry
>>>>>>> and Red Foley and Jimmy Rogers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mississippi John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt with me" is
>>>>>>> unmistakably Jimmy Rogers'"All Around the Water Tank" a/k/a "Waiting
>>>>>>> for a Train."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dick Waterman
>>>>>>> 1601 Buchanan Avenue
>>>>>>> Oxford, MS 38655
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ==============================**==========
>>>>>> Archives& web interface:
>>>>>> http://listserv.nethelps.com/**ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML<http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML>
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>>>>>
>>>>
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mannish
2012-05-31 22:06:23 UTC
Permalink
In regards to the country influence debate I have seen very, very little
mention of modern players or here and now players. Heck Robert Johnson &
his peers would play polka music if that it is what it took but that has
no bearing on TODAY.

I would like to see mention of right here and now blues players under 60
who is doing country music - Post those videos



L

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Jonny Meister
2012-06-01 01:50:58 UTC
Permalink
Hard enough just finding blues players under sixty at all, let alone
blues players who play country! :-)

At 06:03 PM 5/31/2012, ***@windstream.net wrote:
>In regards to the country influence debate I have seen very, very little
>mention of modern players or here and now players. Heck Robert Johnson &
>his peers would play polka music if that it is what it took but that has
>no bearing on TODAY.
>
>I would like to see mention of right here and now blues players under 60
>who is doing country music - Post those videos
>
>L

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Jimmy Jacobs
2012-06-01 02:34:58 UTC
Permalink
or country players under sixty who play country.

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Jonny Meister <***@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hard enough just finding blues players under sixty at all, let alone
> blues players who play country! :-)
>
> At 06:03 PM 5/31/2012, ***@windstream.net wrote:
>
>> In regards to the country influence debate I have seen very, very little
>> mention of modern players or here and now players. Heck Robert Johnson &
>> his peers would play polka music if that it is what it took but that has
>> no bearing on TODAY.
>>
>> I would like to see mention of right here and now blues players under 60
>> who is doing country music - Post those videos
>>
>> L
>>
>
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mannish
2012-06-01 03:12:31 UTC
Permalink
true
L

On 5/31/2012 9:32 PM, Jimmy Jacobs wrote:
> or country players under sixty who play country.
>
> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Jonny Meister<***@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hard enough just finding blues players under sixty at all, let alone
>> blues players who play country! :-)
>>
>> At 06:03 PM 5/31/2012, ***@windstream.net wrote:
>>
>>> In regards to the country influence debate I have seen very, very little
>>> mention of modern players or here and now players. Heck Robert Johnson&
>>> his peers would play polka music if that it is what it took but that has
>>> no bearing on TODAY.
>>>
>>> I would like to see mention of right here and now blues players under 60
>>> who is doing country music - Post those videos
>>>
>>> L
>>>
>> ==============================**==========
>> Archives& web interface: http://listserv.nethelps.com/**
>> ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML<http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML>
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>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2169 / Virus Database: 2425/5037 - Release Date: 05/31/12
>
>

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MARK SCHOSSOW
2012-05-31 02:25:48 UTC
Permalink
At least someone in the world knows what the hell influinced the Blues in Chi town and the Mississippi delta.The folk that grew up and live(ed) there certainly don't.For shame on y'all fer not booklearnin about ur own states.Thirty lashes with a wet noodle to ya.
ignerntly,
Mark

I sent this e mail from my outhouse phone.

-----Original Message-----

From: ***@MYFAIRPOINT.NET
Sent: 29 May 2012 21:55:20 GMT
To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'

Have you ever been to Memphis and traveled the surrounding area -- Mississippi, Arkansas --
Harri? It sounds like you haven't. Because if you go, you will see
how everybody was thrown together into a melting pot of music, white,
black, creole and more. With the river making travel fairly easy, one would have had
to have been deaf not to have been influenced by everything being
played in those parts. And musicians surely are not deaf.

On Wed, 30 May 2012 00:23:05 0300, Harri Haka wrote:
I had the priviilige of meeting Willie "Big Eyes" Smith two months
> before he died. We talked about white singers with a black voice e.g.
> Tom Jones. And Charley Pride and Ray Charles doing c&w. I doubt that
> blues musicians were actually influenced by c&w and all of us can hear
> this on recordings and live shows. To be a smart ass, one might say that
> every musician is influenced by Beethoven. But Chuck Berry gave his
> answer to that question.
> Harri
>
>
> 29.5.2012 6:09, Tom Hyslop kirjoitti:
> > Harri,
> >
> > Respectfully submitted, your position as stated is simply incorrect.
> >
> > Every bluesman of a certain age that I have interviewed - including
> > Magic Slim, Phillip Walker, Big Jack Johnson, John Primer, and many
> > others - professed a deep and abiding love for country music. Whether
> > it was an innate feeling for the style or the fact that it was all
> > they heard on the radio, as has been mentioned, does not much matter.
> > Howlin' Wolf cited the yodeling of The Singing Brakeman, Jimmie
> > Rodgers, as the inspiration for his own vocalizations. Mel Brown
> > toured with Tompall Glaser, just as he did with Bobby Bland; Glaser is
> > a country artist. You can look it up. Or you can continue to believe
> > what you want, rather than to face facts.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > tom
> >
> > At 3:34 AM 0300 5/29/12, Harri Haka wrote:
> >> Like I was saying, there was not a general interest for country music
> >> among the wider black audience. It is of course natural for a talent
> >> like B.B. King to have studied all genres including country and jazz.
> >> But does any of this reflect on his actual playing or singing? He has
> >> flirted with U2, Eric Clapton and others in the past years but I hardly
> >> find a c&w influence on any of his recordings. Mississippi John Hurt is
> >> greatly respected but he was a folk singer and story teller with a
> >> natural connection to country music of his time.
> >> Harri
> >>
> >>
> >> 29.5.2012 2:35, ***@aol.com kirjoitti:
> >>>
> >>> Not wanting to take part in the c&w discussion more than to say
> >>> that
> >>> there was never a general interest in country music within the
> >>> black
> >>> community.
> >>>
> >>> ------------
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> This is absolutely not true.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Blues people growing up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s all
> >>> listened to WLAC (Nashville) with its powerful signal.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> B.B.King told me in great detail how he had listen to Gene Autry
> >>> and Red Foley and Jimmy Rogers.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Mississippi John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt with me" is
> >>> unmistakably Jimmy Rogers'"All Around the Water Tank" a/k/a "Waiting
> >>> for a Train."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Dick Waterman
> >>> 1601 Buchanan Avenue
> >>> Oxford, MS 38655
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ========================================
> >> Archives & web interface:
> >> http://listserv.nethelps.com/ARCHIVES/BLUES-L.HTML
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> >
>
>
>
>
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MARK SCHOSSOW
2012-05-31 02:26:04 UTC
Permalink
cant quit till ya win.

I sent this e mail from my outhouse phone.

-----Original Message-----

From: ***@MYFAIRPOINT.NET
Sent: 29 May 2012 22:03:15 GMT
To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
Subject: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'

http://youtu.be/szya2It2MqY

On Tue, 29 May 2012 17:33:40 -0400, ***@AOL.COM wrote:
I doubt that
> blues musicians were actually influenced by c&w and all of us can hear
> this on recordings and live shows. -------------------
>
> I think this thread has gone on long enough . . .
>
> My final thought is that Howling Wolf said that his 'howl' was his
> version of Jimmy Rogers' yodel . . .
>
>
> Dick Waterman
> 1601 Buchanan Avenue
> Oxford, MS 38655
>
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bluesfantom
2012-05-31 05:09:22 UTC
Permalink
Can't say I've been really following this thread. Just now and then since
it's been done to death over the years. Whatever. I decided to come out of
lurk mode briefly to toss in my negligible two cents with this: Say It One
Time for the Brokenhearted by Barney Hoskyns. This is a wonderful look at
the relationship between C&W and soul. The guy is a terrific writer and
does a great, bang-up job on this topic. Must read if you're really
interested.

Back to lurk mode,
tom

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MARK SCHOSSOW
2012-06-01 03:03:12 UTC
Permalink
If this is about a grad.of CCM being from awile back,the point I was trying to make (of MY opinion)was that I think things should be reversed.I think C&W musicians got THEY'RE stuff from the Blues,rock,jazz and Bluegrass,or "early country" and folk if thats ur preference.These earlier country stars toned it down,to fit the sensibilities of the Bible belt if you wish which covered an area from Saskatchewan south all thru the dakotas and Nebraska and into Texas.
This was a huge area that went from points east as the mississippi river to the Rockies. It was an open market that had no real music that they could identify with.Hank and Roy Acuff were 2 that could appeal to all,be they from where ever is ok with everybody.I worked on my grandfathers ranc in N.D. and also in S.D.,eastern Col. and .Montana.They toned down the beat and sung stuff that has not changed in about 55 years.Love,drinkin,fightin,Beeves and they're horse.(which if they kissed they're wives as much),they could stop singing about love and its sorrows.
Their were also farmers and the industries that supported them.I've heard Guthrie and Jimmy Rogers referred to as "country".Maby its Roy Rogers and Jimmy Dean they are thinking about.
Neither my dad,nor my uncles had 1 record that resembled c&w of the 60's,70,80's etc. before the early 50's.That would be my opinion.Everyone has a right to believe in their opinions.and I believe this is my last message.Mebbe not.

I sent this E Mail from my O phone

-----Original Message-----

From: mannish
Sent: 31 May 2012 22:07:18 GMT
To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'

In regards to the country influence debate I have seen very, very little
mention of modern players or here and now players. Heck Robert Johnson &
his peers would play polka music if that it is what it took but that has
no bearing on TODAY.

I would like to see mention of right here and now blues players under 60
who is doing country music - Post those videos



L

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MARK SCHOSSOW
2012-06-01 03:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Its most likely true that if a Blues singer did C&W,wouldn't he Be a C&W singer.I have heard a manure wagon full of cowboys sing the Blues,though.lol

I sent this E Mail from my O phone

-----Original Message-----

From: mannish
Sent: 31 May 2012 22:07:18 GMT
To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'

In regards to the country influence debate I have seen very, very little
mention of modern players or here and now players. Heck Robert Johnson &
his peers would play polka music if that it is what it took but that has
no bearing on TODAY.

I would like to see mention of right here and now blues players under 60
who is doing country music - Post those videos



L

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Jonny Meister
2012-06-01 09:51:49 UTC
Permalink
Well, there are two young country singers who have charted in recent
years at least a bit whom I really like, Blaine Larsen and Ashton
Shepherd. Larsen is 26 now and he had a hit with "How Do You Get
That Lonely" at age 19. Shepherd will be 26 this summer, and she is
best known for "Takin' Off This Pain" in 2008. Both she and Larsen
have started families at their young ages, which may have slowed
their careers, but for country lovers on this list (and I know that
there are a few), they are definitely worth checking out.

I'm looking forward to seeing Marquise Knox this July at Pennsylvania
Blues Festival, and other solid young blues artists (to be sure,
there are too few!) include Big A (Anthony Sharrod) from "We Juke Up
In Here" and "Last Of The Mississipi Jukes," Brandon O. Bailey, and
Gary Clark, Jr (why is his full-length album taking so long to
appear??) - - and some I only know from YouTube, who seem to have few
if any albums, and haven't played in my part of the country, Sunny
War and Eudora Evans (love those names!)

At 10:32 PM 5/31/2012, Jimmy Jacobs wrote:
>or country players under sixty who play country.
>
>On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Jonny Meister wrote:
>Hard enough just finding blues players under sixty at all, let alone
>blues players who play country! :-)

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MARK SCHOSSOW
2012-06-01 13:49:46 UTC
Permalink
David Allen Coe did a song on how country songs were all about drinkin, women,prison and trains and mothers.The song ended about his moma got drunk,came to pick him up from prison and got runned over by a damned 'ol train.Chuck? Can you find that one? My memory is shot.He has it down,though.
Yup in Duluth.


I sent this E Mail from my O phone

-----Original Message-----

From: Jonny Meister
Sent: 1 Jun 2012 09:53:17 GMT
To: BLUES-***@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'

Well, there are two young country singers who have charted in recent
years at least a bit whom I really like, Blaine Larsen and Ashton
Shepherd. Larsen is 26 now and he had a hit with "How Do You Get
That Lonely" at age 19. Shepherd will be 26 this summer, and she is
best known for "Takin' Off This Pain" in 2008. Both she and Larsen
have started families at their young ages, which may have slowed
their careers, but for country lovers on this list (and I know that
there are a few), they are definitely worth checking out.

I'm looking forward to seeing Marquise Knox this July at Pennsylvania
Blues Festival, and other solid young blues artists (to be sure,
there are too few!) include Big A (Anthony Sharrod) from "We Juke Up
In Here" and "Last Of The Mississipi Jukes," Brandon O. Bailey, and
Gary Clark, Jr (why is his full-length album taking so long to
appear??) - - and some I only know from YouTube, who seem to have few
if any albums, and haven't played in my part of the country, Sunny
War and Eudora Evans (love those names!)

At 10:32 PM 5/31/2012, Jimmy Jacobs wrote:
>or country players under sixty who play country.
>
>On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Jonny Meister wrote:
>Hard enough just finding blues players under sixty at all, let alone
>blues players who play country! :-)

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